 |
ChristianDiscussion.com
Public Christian Discussion and Christian Debate Forums
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:41 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | Murder is the unlawful killing of someone something. |
With that definition, one could easily say then that abortion, since it is legal, is not murder. Additionally, you qualify it as someone or something. You mean then that if I kill someone's cat, illegally, I am then committing murder? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| i would define murder as choosing to terminate the life of someone (being man as created by God to recreate-multiply)without them having a choice in the matter.we are as humans chosen to serve God everything else on the earth is created for mans use to serve man in some way.so by terminating that which is man or the seed of man is terminating that which could of served God so are we not denying someone of serving God by abborting them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
So what then of capitol punishment? While there is biblical precedence for it - indeed, there is biblical advocacy for it, is it not terminating someone who could have served God?
Are you not also making the assumption that every person could serve God and therefore should not be denied that choice? Who then makes the choice to serve God? Man or God?
The bible clearly states that no man seeks God, no not one. Some are called by God to serve, and some are not. God's will is not subject to our acceptance or implementation is it? If it is God's will that someone live to serve Him, will not that person then live - regardless of our say in the matter? Or do you hold that God's power is subject to our cooperation and assistance? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Murder is the intentional premeditated killing of a human being.
So, tell us what you consider human. You asked the question, we replied, we will go with everyone else's definitions.
Exodus 21:12 He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death.
Exodus 21: 14 If a man kill his neighbour on set purpose, and by lying in wait for him: thou shalt take him away from my altar that he may die.
Genesis 9: 6 Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God.
1 john 3: 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer.
How much hate does it portray for one to lie in wait and kill an innocent(human being)*?
Douay
*Apparently we have to put everything in small words for you, so I put that in there so that YOU would know we are talking about people(from the planet earth). I thought it was obvious to everyone what we are talking about in an ABORTION* forum, but it seems to allude YOU. So that you know, Gen 9.6 was not talking about acupuncture(stylostixis)*, if you need help interpretting it just ask.
*Abortion is the removal* of a fetus from a woman's body, causing the death of an unborn baby(not fully developed homo sapiens sapiens).
*Or causing the death of and having the body expel the carcass* naturally.
*Carcass of a dead baby, as defined above.
*acupuncture(stylostixis)- treatment of pain or disease by inserting the tips of needles at specific points on the skin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Did God give us free will? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
God said if you do certain things(1) you will be put to death. That holds no bearing to this topic(2). The unborn(3) cannot do those things(1).
Douay
1- defined in previous response by me, as per bible quotes.
2-abortion
3-homo sapiens sapiens |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i agree not with capitol punishment for i believe this also is murder and does not practice forgiveness like Jesus teaches.
very good point do we choose to serve God or does he choose us.
i believe God is all powerful and does choose us all of us are choosen but we're also given a choice God shows us the right way but we choose not to obey God chooses us but we choose also do you say God chooses those who sin and those who don't or do we choose sin over Him.He chose to give us eternal life but did He choose who would have it or isn't this our choice.i believe it is Gods choice that all who are conceived should live but abortion is our choice.God chooses to love us but we have to choose his love over the loves of the world.God is the God of creation he gives us this gift of creation isn' it disobedient to kill the creation when it's already started being created. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Murder is the intentional premeditated killing of a human being.
So, tell us what you consider human. You asked the question, we replied, we will go with everyone else's definitions. |
To be fair, the closest thing to a definition of human, as supplied by those responding in this thread was this:
| Quote: | | we are as humans chosen to serve God everything else on the earth is created for mans use to serve man in some way |
While this is not technically a definition of human, but more of an attribute of the state of being human, I will address it's merits as best I can.
In essence you define human as a being created to serve God? Then what of the donkey Christ rode upon His entrance into Jerusalem? Wasn't that living thing serving God? Can we then consider it human? Or what of the fishes Christ used to feed the multitude? Did they not serve God?
Y'all want to lash out at me because I am asking tough questions? You want to ascribe to me a postion and attack me personally becasue of your frustration - I understand that. However. Instead of insulting me (Douay) perhaps you should put some thought into what you believe and why and take the time to establish your belief clearly, logically, and scripturally.
You want to convice someone that abortion is wrong? Good, then convince someone - don't just say "I believe it, so that's the way it is and if you don't then you're poopie head".
"In the light of the times we live in, it is important for Christians not only know what they believe but also, why they believe what they believe." ~ Patrick Zukeran, Th.M; Probe Ministries
What do I consider the qualification of human? Simple. The existence of a soul. We are different from all of God's creation because we have been ensouled. It has nothing to do with our choice to serve God, as no man makes that choice of himself, but only through the behest of the Lord.
Life is a physical thing, to take a life is not murder, if it was then harvesting wheat or butchering cattle, or disinfecting the bathroom would be murder, as it all entails taking of life. Taking human life has one distinct difference from all of that - it causes the final disposition of one's soul. The murder of a man who has recieved salvation from God, frees that soul to its eternity with God. The murder of a man who has not received salvation from God condemns that soul to eternal seperation from God.
Is this definition acceptable or no? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From the time that the sperm hits the egg and fertilizes it, it is a little human. Killing it, therefore, is murder.
It is quite obviously an egg, though also obviously NOT like the ones in your fridge which don't ever produce human babies. The proof is in the growing. (it is only an egg until fertilized then it is an embryo)
They say that it is just a mass of cells after fertilization that split and multiply. Look in the mirror, real close, you'll see that we are all just a mass of cells.
Once the sperm and egg unite, it is a little human.
Those were the definitions I was talking about.
| Quote: | | It has nothing to do with our choice to serve God, as no man makes that choice of himself, but only through the behest of the Lord. |
So we don't choose wheteher or not we serve God? We don't choose to do right or wrong? We are all predestined to live out our lives as predetermined by God?
You have pointed out various possible conclusions from others' posts, if you take what they said to an extreme that you know they had not intended. Please stop, it's just not synchronous with a mature conversation. The donkey was carrying a man. The fishes were dead.
I thought I had been clear.
When does a baby get a soul?
Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical. That would be like saying that thought and consciousness are physical. They, too, can be described by a set of physical circumstances.
If there was a definition I could not find what you meant.
Douay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| a donkey or a fish can not serve God by choosing to believe in His existence love and sacrifice or yes because they have no soul but what is the soul is it the same as the heart or is the heart just a bodily organ is the soul what gives us the ability to choose is it the same as our mind some may say it's our conscience what is our conscience is this what tells us right from wrong how do we know what is right if we have not known the word of God if we have not known God do we have a soul.we as humans are the chosen creation to serve God whether we do or not for do we not choose to believe in Christ must not we choose to believe of our own free will or is there just a chosen few who have no choice or is there some who were chosen as prophets was Abraham chosen but did he still not have to choose for did he not choose God over his son would many of us do this.i believe as a human with the ability to believe what i choose that abortion is wrong as it kills one of Gods choosen creations which have the ability to serve Him and by killing this creation which is already being created we choose to kill of our own will not of the will of God for God did not give us the natural ability to destroy these lives only to create. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | So we don't choose wheteher or not we serve God? |
The basic doctrine of election. We serve God because God chose us to come to Him.
Do mormons serve God? Does the Pope or the Cardnial serve God? Do the elders of the JW's serve God? Why or why not?
| Quote: | | Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical. That would be like saying that thought and consciousness are physical. They, too, can be described by a set of physical circumstances. |
... and your point? I have already differentiated between life and humanity. Do you agree with my definition or not? If not, why not?
Just in case you missed it, I provided this definition:
| Quote: | | What do I consider the qualification of human? Simple. The existence of a soul. We are different from all of God's creation because we have been ensouled. |
.
You argue that life is not physical, yet:
| Quote: | | Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical. That would be like saying that thought and consciousness are physical. They, too, can be described by a set of physical circumstances. |
you offer no other definition. Life is life, it has been defined by philosophy, science, and theology, with the only differentiating aspects being consciousness. That aspect, as defined by science and philosophy, is also an attribute shared by animals and human.
I offered the existence of the soul as the one defining aspect that fully seperates us from all other animals. The one aspect that fully defines the parameters which constitute the difference between killing (ending life) and murder.
One can either accept that view or reject it, but either way, one should be able to argue for or against it. What say you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 283
Location: Palmyra,Missouri USA
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:54 pm Post subject: Is Abortion Wrong? |
|
|
What happen to: Is Abortion Wrong?
Nobby |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| i think abortions wrong and have explained my reasons the best i can i think douay thinks abortions wrong and has done the same but i don't really know what revjp's opinion is(no offence rev)but i think you are making things a bit more complicated than they need to be i don't mean to be insulting i think you make some very good points but what exactly is your opinion the subject. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would like to know what you were talking about/meant when you wrote this:
| Quote: | You argue that life is not physical, yet:
Quote:
Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical. That would be like saying that thought and consciousness are physical. They, too, can be described by a set of physical circumstances.
|
When you used the word 'yet', did you imply that I somehow contradicted myself, if so, show how. You brought this point up initially, remember that, it was only mentioned by me because I disagreed.
I would still like to know when you think a human* gets a soul.
I disagree with your defintion of a human.
Quote:
"I offered the existence of the soul as the one defining aspect that fully seperates us from all other animals. The one aspect that fully defines the parameters which constitute the difference between killing (ending life) and murder."
I think you need to pose an argument for your positition that humans have a soul and (other) animals do not.
Douay
*human- yet to be determined, apparently. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Douay:
| Quote: | | did you imply that I somehow contradicted myself, if so, show how |
You say that life can be described by a set of physical circustances, you mention thought and consciousness and then go on to agree that they too can be described as physical. You offer nothing to the definition of life other than the idea that it can be described as physical. If you disagree with that, you have yet to offer a diametric POV.
Paul:
| Quote: | | but i think you are making things a bit more complicated than they need to be |
I'm sorry, but I do not agree. I am seeking clarification on why you believe what you believe. If you are fine with believing something 'just becasue you want to', then that is your choice. I find it difficult however, to go out into the world and try and convince someone of the validity of a position when the only thing I have to support that positon is my desire to believe that it is true.
As for my opinion on the rightness or wrongness of abortion - I have not expressed one here. I find it more helpful to discuss a topic like this if I leave myself open to the truth and the facts. It also keeps others from attacking me or my position instead of answering the tough questions.
Douay:
| Quote: | | I disagree with your defintion of a human. |
Please then, offer a definition that we can agree upon. Without that basic building block the rest of the argument is moot.
Douay:
| Quote: | | I think you need to pose an argument for your positition that humans have a soul and (other) animals do not. |
At the moment, that POV is based on the oral traditions of the Church. If you would disagree with it I would like to know why, before I offer other support for that position.
As it stands, the question "Is abortion wrong?" has taken the legal, scientific, and political arguments out of the debate. Abortion is legal, so apparently the courts and the laws have decided it is not wrong according to their definitions surrounding the issue. Our debate here has to be theological and scriptural.
I am not here to contradict anyone in their POV, I am here to find out if their POV is supportable by scripture, theocratic logic, and sound doctrine. You want my opinion on whether abortion is wrong? I don't truly have one yet. Convince me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
