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Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I only have a second so I am just going to bring up one point and get back to the rest later.
You said:
| Quote: | | Life is a physical thing |
I said:
| Quote: | | Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical |
At least admit that these two statements are diametrically opposed. If we can't communicate at all, there is no way we can discuss abortion.
Douay |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, as stated, they are diametrically opposed. My point was that you did not leave those remarks 'as stated'. You qualified them with a comparison to thought and consciousness, and proceeded to admit that those to could be described as physical.
Is life a physical or spiritual thing? If physical then the definition of life as opposed to the definition of human is paramount in this discussion. If you consider life to be a physical and spiritual thing, then define for me the difference between mankind and animalkind. |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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rev
your definition of human being the existence of the soul but what actually is the soul can you define this for me although i think i do agree with you but i'm not quite sure what actually defines the soul as i expressed in a earlier post.so can you as the one who originally used this to define human actually define what the soul is.
God bless paul. |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| could a definition of human be the ability to sin?or maybe disobey God? |
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Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Life can be described by a set of physical circumstances, but is in itself not physical. That would be like saying that thought and consciousness are physical. They, too, can be described by a set of physical circumstances.
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Let me interpret, life is not physical, thought is not physical, consciousness is not physical, they can all be described by a set of physical circumstances, however, such as the determination of whether or not something is alive based on the physical evidence of its interactions with its surroundings, or the tracking of mental activity to determine whether or not thought is occurring. Do you understand now?
| Quote: | | You qualified them with a comparison to thought and consciousness |
So what?
| Quote: | and proceeded to admit that those to could be described as physical.
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This is about the third time you have misinterpretted what I said(on this subject). I never described them(1) as physical. What more do I have to do than write it down in plain english?
Douay
1.- them- life, thought, consciousness. |
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Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth if the spirit of the children of Adam ascend upward, and if the spirit of the beasts descend downward?
Animals have spirits(souls), just not eternal ones.
In the Hebrew language the same word is used to describe the life(soul) of animals and man.
You said:
| Quote: | | What do I consider the qualification of human? Simple. The existence of a soul. We are different from all of God's creation because we have been ensouled. |
If I use that definition and what the bible said then cows are human and to kill one is murder.
Douay |
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wasions
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'll take a stab at that definition:
Human: That being which is created in the 'image of God'
God is Father (Mind), Son (Body), and Spirit (Soul). Humans are unique in that we have the same basic characteristics as God, according to the Creator. The Scriptures make no reference to any other animal having the same status. The fact that other animals have substance (body) is without debate. Intelligence (mind) however, has been debated for centuries. Whether other animals have a soul is something that we simply cannot know by simple reason.
If that seems shallow, well, sorry. I'm a little too shallow for this discussion anyway.  |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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can we just not say a human is the seed of a human we know we are human for we came from our mother who was human if we came from a cow and our mother was a cow we'd be a cow.
life starts as soon as the seed is planted and rhe life relies on it's enviroment to live and develop and if it is taken from it's enviroment before it's developed enough it dies.
therefore if you willingly kill(kill being to stop something from living)this human life does not this class as murder.
god bless paul |
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Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well put Paul,
If you don't mind I will expound a little on what you said. You really put the discussion back on topic, which is what I was going to try to do soon.
Paul said, we know we are human, and we know what women give birth to is human. It doesn't matter how you define it, and I ask in earnest that we just let this one drop unless you have a real point. The only question I have been able to fathom in this regard is 'when does a soul enter the baby?'
Paul said:
| Quote: | | life starts as soon as the seed is planted and rhe life relies on it's enviroment to live and develop and if it is taken from it's enviroment before it's developed enough it dies. |
Well I would like to add a few things on this subject. As soon as the seed begins to grow, it is alive. In terms of humanity, as soon as the egg and sperm are united, the cell comes to life and begins to grow and divide. If you want to say it isn't human at this point then you can never say a human exists, because from day to day there is no dramatically noticable difference, it is never a little pile of cells one day and then a little adult in appearence human the next. If we are to say that it is not a human after fertilization and before birth, then you are only human while you live, because after you die you turn into dirt and no longer resemble a human in any fashion, so therefore you were never human at all. As the bible puts it, when a life begins it has a soul, as having life and having a soul are defined by the same word. When your physical presence ceases to function your soul is freed to whatever end it shall merit. If this is brought about by one human onto another then we need to use the biblical references to decide if it was morally appropriate or could be construed as murder. If murder is the intentional premeditated killing of a human being, as defined by Exodus 21:12 "He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death.", and Exodus 21: 14 "If a man kill his neighbour on set purpose, and by lying in wait for him: thou shalt take him away from my altar that he may die.", and we understand that the word 'man' means man, woman, child, or in other words a human being, we can determine if murder has been committed.
Abortion being the cause of death of a human being after conception(when egg and sperm unite and the cell comes to life) and before birth, by a person, who of willfull mind set out to cause such an action, can logically, reasonably, scientifically, and scripturally be defined as murder.
That is (I believe) the point we have been trying to make. If any adjustments are necessary I will freely discuss them and make alterations as they become apparent.
Douay |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As the bible puts it, when a life begins it has a soul, as having life and having a soul are defined by the same word. When your physical presence ceases to function your soul is freed to whatever end it shall merit. |
Please share with me where the bible says that when life begins it has a soul. Please also show me how you have concluded that having a life and having a soul are defined by the same word.
Are you referring to the Hebrew word ruwach?
| Quote: | ruwach {roo'-akh} (Strong's 07306)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised force |
Ultimately, I am not arguing the appearance of man, child, embryo, etc., as a basis for defining humanity. The physical aspect is not relevant, as all physical definitions fail to provide sufficiency for the reason to classify the intentional death of someone as murder as opposed to just being killed.
Thought and consciousness ARE physically defined aspects of men. Thoughts can adequately be defined as electro-chemical processes in the brain. To define them further requires us to step away from the physical and define the intangible. My opinion is that humanity resides in the intangible. It is that.... essence, that makes us human.
To me, aside from chromosomes, cell structure, thought and consciousness there exists something more - a soul. It is this soul that defines human and seperates us from all other animals.
At this point we either agree or disagree on the concept of humanity, if we disagree then we are faced with a difference of opinion and have placed ourselves where the debate has always been - What is life, etc...
If we agree, then we can try to determine the idea of ensoulment. I will not try to fool you. I have had this debate before and I am still unsatisfied with the answers offered and am truly hoping for theological and scriptural insight. |
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Douay
Tadpole
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking about the word nephesh, which means life or soul. I thought that it was the word used in Eccl 3:21, but it is ruwach. I can't read Hebrew, but it appears to be used in reference to both animals and man in this passage. In this context, though, it makes no difference. Ruwach means in this context, from the supplied definitions(which I checked and agree on), 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit; d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals); 1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being; 5) as energy of life; and I'm sure others could be found. The point is they were both described as being ensouled.
Gen7:14-15 "14 They and every beast according to its kind, and all the cattle in their kind, and every thing that moveth upon the earth, according to its kind, and every fowl according to its kind, all birds, and all that fly,
15 Went in to Noe into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein was the breath of life. "
Gen7: 21-22 "21 And all flesh was destroyed that moved upon the earth, both of fowl and of cattle, and of beasts, and of all creeping things that creep upon the earth: and all men.
22 And all things wherein there is the breath of life on the earth, died. "
The difference is that men have an eternal soul, and were endowed with the gift of intelligence, and were made by God, etc.
The question you need to ask I suppose is, when do we get a soul?
I already answered.
Gen 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul."
He became alive and had a soul at the same time. We all know he was a fully developed man, but if it is not the presence of a soul, what makes us live? When the initial fertilized cell begins to act it is alive, it is no longer a cell. To say that it is not ensouled until it looks like a human and has a brain is just nuts. I don't know what question you are trying to ask, I thought I had answered it.
Douay |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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i'm a bit confused have we defined anything.
if not what are we trying to define.
i'll just ask a few questions forgive me if they've already been answered but i've i don't think i'm grasping it all.
does God not define Adam and Eve as human when he creates them as mankind and gives them dominion over all other life.
is not being alive having been created and not dead.
is murder the willfull killing of another human.
when adam knew eve cain starting being created if eve had abborted cain i don't think God would have been pleased.
as soon as there's something in the womb to take out if you stop it's growth have you not killed it.for when a baby is first born it knows nothing it's not really fully developed it can't walk talk or feed it's self so whats the difference with killing it then to in the womb.you can say you're not really developed till you're 18 or older does that mean you're not human or not a life until then.
if there's no life inside her why would she need to abort it .by being created it is a life.
i think i'm confusing myself.
anyway
God bless
paul. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Gen 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul."
We should explore this.
Paul:
| Quote: | | is murder the willfull killing of another human. |
This is in essence the question. What is murder? What theologically and scriptural constitutes murder? That is the question we are endeavoring to answer. Is murder the willful killing of another human? If yes, then why? What about it (the willful killing of a human) makes it wrong? What determines humanity which the concept of murder is based on?
| Quote: | | if there's no life inside her why would she need to abort it .by being created it is a life. |
The question isn't necessarily that of life or ending life, but what kind of life is being ended.
Technically, for everyone, conception is not the creation of something, it is the making of something. Creation has the sole distinction of being "something from nothing", and only God has the power to create. Mankind can make things, we make Coke out of water and chemicals, babies out of sperm and egg. |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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yes i can agree that the soul makes us alive,but then we have the problem of what defines the soul.for animals could also have a soul,i don't think they do really not a soul like a human,but i know not this for sure and have no proof.also aren't plants alive,i would say yes to this but say they have no soul which also i can't prove.
never mind what defines human for a minute,can't we just agree that murder is the willful killing of another human life.so that we've defined murder and are then just looking for human and life.for if we define human and life isn't murder already defined for us.
we are human right,how do we know this because we came from our mother who was human, how do we know she was human because she was created(recreated)from her mother and father and so on till you come to Adam and Eve them being defined by God as man and woman or human.what things are we able to do that no other living thing can do i would say read or understand Gods word in some way and sin and be forgiven for by Christ.can any other living thing do these things or have these things done to them.
and can't you just say life is what was given by God for God created life and gave it the ability to recreate life of it's kind.God defined life by giving it the ability to recreate of it's own kind.
so as i said before when recreation starts it's a life of it's own kind never mind what stage of developement it relies on food and the enviroment it's in to stay alive.nothing can reproduce until it gets to a certain stage of it's life it doesn't mean it's not alive until it does this.
can't we put this into four parts murder,human,life and being alive.i don't know about you but i think if we define them separetly we can get somewhere.
God bless.
paul. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Humanity is the crux of all definitions. We cannot begin to define murder or anything else until we have defined human.
To say we are humans because our fathers and our father's fathers ad nauseum were human, does not define humanity. To say we are what we are because they are what they were is not a definition. WHY were they what they were? I say it is the existence of a soul. A spirit, eternal life force, given by God to the first man - Adam. A God-breathed eternal spirit that we posess and no other life forms do.
Based on that assumption, I can define murder (using your definition) as the willful killing of a human, which prematurely resigns one's soul to its eternal destination - one cannot MURDER a plant, or cow, or cat. We can kill these things but cannot murder them.
If we accept the definition of human as I put forth, then we can logically accept the definition of murder. With those premises agreed upon, we can debate on whether or not abortion constitutes murder. The crux of THAT debate then becomes "When are humans ensouled?"
If we do not accept the premise of the eternal soul, then we are back to non-theological definitions, and no closer to an agreement on the subject. |
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