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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: Paul: The truth about Apostle Paul |
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Hear me out:
I think Paul was both a good man and an eloquent speaker. I think he was chosen by God to be an apostle.
Here's where I have a problem though: Many people read what is written by the apostle Paul and take it as gospel. I have an issue with this for 3 basic reasons:
1) Many times people apply laws, statutes and ordinances that were meant to guide people back in those days and apply them to the letter to our lives today. I think Paul had a lot of great things to say in Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians etc... but common sense should rule and we should realize that some things were meant ....well.... for the people of Corinth, Ephesus and Galatia.
As an example, if I were accepted as and believed to be an apostle and I wrote a letter to a church in Salt Lake City, UT. 220 years ago, would you take all that I had written and apply it as gospel to your own life?
2) Paul was just a man. He was a strong-willed opinionated man at that. He sometimes did state his own personal opinions in his letters to these different congregations.
3) Paul kind of bounced back and forth between following strictly the laws that Jesus wants us to follow (NC) and the laws that Moses had written long before Jesus teachings and his sacrifice set us free from those laws (OC). (Jesus did incorporate in to his teachings some laws from the OC but from the time of Jesus onward, there was no longer a need to follow each and every law from that time period).
Just some food for thought.....
Much Luv  |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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So, would you suggest that we are to take Paul out of scripture, or just pick those parts we like and dismiss the others?
Does God not have sovereignty? Is it your belief that He was unable to bring to us the words He wanted us to have in His Holy Inspired Word? |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Rev... I missed this response. I believe that most of what Paul wrote was inspired. I know, however, that some was his personal opinion. I also know that some of what he wrote pertained to the churches/congregations he was addressing at the time as there were specific issues and problems that Paul had to address with each congregation.
Moreover, Paul admonished that we follow the laws of the land so when he makes a statement like "so saith the law" he is telling the congregation that they need to abide by the laws of the land. The only time a Christian does not follow the laws of the land is if they are in direct conflict with the laws of God. Paul showed this by example.
Much Love, Luv:) |
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rst
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | Moreover, Paul admonished that we follow the laws of the land so when he makes a statement like "so saith the law" he is telling the congregation that they need to abide by the laws of the land. |
Can you give an example of this, please? |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I did not respond to this earlier. I have not been on this board in a while.
I came over tonight because the Bible-discussion.com site is down and I just happened to see this.
Yes.
When Paul said (1 Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
Luv |
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rst
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | Sorry I did not respond to this earlier. I have not been on this board in a while. |
That's ok.
| luvnlife wrote: | | When Paul said (1 Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. |
Thanks. Which law was he referring to? |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rst wrote: | | luvnlife wrote: | | When Paul said (1 Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. |
Thanks. Which law was he referring to? |
That's an excellent question, rst and one that has been much-debated!
I'm about 99% sure it's not a Levitical law Paul made reference to. I have pinned a few people to the mat on that one. I have done my own research and have not been able to find anything supporting that assumption. I have put the ball back in the courts of those who assumed that he was making reference to Levitical law and they have never ever been able to come up with anything that supports this false assumption.
Was he referring to a law of the land at that time in history? Could he have been referring to a law imposed by the church or even by himself? I don't know. Was it really a law or perhaps a guideline laid out for that church at that time?
Now you see why I say the question you have posed is an excellent one.
Luv  |
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rst
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | rst wrote: | | luvnlife wrote: | | When Paul said (1 Cor 14:34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. |
Thanks. Which law was he referring to? |
That's an excellent question, rst and one that has been much-debated!
I'm about 99% sure it's not a Levitical law Paul made reference to. I have pinned a few people to the mat on that one. I have done my own research and have not been able to find anything supporting that assumption. I have put the ball back in the courts of those who assumed that he was making reference to Levitical law and they have never ever been able to come up with anything that supports this false assumption.
Was he referring to a law of the land at that time in history? Could he have been referring to a law imposed by the church or even by himself? I don't know. Was it really a law or perhaps a guideline laid out for that church at that time?
Now you see why I say the question you have posed is an excellent one. |
You are quite right in saying that Paul commanded the saints to obey civil laws, but when he wrote 'as the law says', he meant the law of God. While all nations at the time (afaik) and for many centuries after had legal restrictions on women's status in society, Paul certainly would not and could not have used Roman Law in Corinth or anywhere else to actually silence women.
And by the law of God, Paul very much did not mean Mosaic Law, whose ceremonial rites had been ended for ever by the cross. Of course the moral precepts continued- murder and theft were still forbidden, as were the sexual offences of adultery, fornication, incest, homosexuality and bestiality, just as they had already been forbidden for all mankind by the natural conscience when Moses went up the mountain.
Now while it is true that Levitical Law has no explicit command for women to be silent, I think that it is implicit in that Law, and in the practices of Israelites generally. But that is not what Paul referred to, I think. He referred instead to Genesis, which was accounted Law by the Jews, and which indeed is more basic and universal in its application than Levitical Law that applied to the Israelites for a limited period only.
'"Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."' Ge 3:16 NIV |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You are quite right in saying that Paul commanded the saints to obey civil laws, but when he wrote 'as the law says', he meant the law of God. While all nations at the time (afaik) and for many centuries after had legal restrictions on women's status in society, Paul certainly would not and could not have used Roman Law in Corinth or anywhere else to actually silence women. |
I'm listening... State your position and back it up with scripture please.
Thanks,
Luv |
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rst
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | Quote: | | You are quite right in saying that Paul commanded the saints to obey civil laws, but when he wrote 'as the law says', he meant the law of God. While all nations at the time (afaik) and for many centuries after had legal restrictions on women's status in society, Paul certainly would not and could not have used Roman Law in Corinth or anywhere else to actually silence women. |
I'm listening. |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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rst, I am wondering why you make the assumption that he is referring to a law created by God when you have not provided scripture verifying this.
Luv  |
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rst
Tadpole
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | rst, I am wondering why you make the assumption that he is referring to a law created by God when you have not provided scripture verifying this. |
See your optician. |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rst wrote: | | luvnlife wrote: | | rst, I am wondering why you make the assumption that he is referring to a law created by God when you have not provided scripture verifying this. |
See your optician. |
Perhaps you should consult your (virtual) audiologist.
You have not shown one shred of biblical proof that this is a law that came from God or was meant to cover all generations from Pauls time forward.
Paul was indeed addressing issues within this particular congregation. Note that he did not say this to each of his congregations but just to this one.
Laws are meant to be adhered to so long as they do not break Gods laws. Paul did obey the laws of the land so long as they were not in conflict with Gods laws.
(When in Rome, do as the Romans do.......)
Women in the U.S. had to fight for their freedom and their right to speak out. But fight they did and legally, women have rights that were not available to the women in Pauls time.
Still waiting......
Luv |
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Lone-Traveler
Little Guppy
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 33
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Luv,
typing in the dark here..so ignore typos..lol
I believe Paul was adressing the "whole body" or church, which is the bride of Christ.
He is the head and all authority of the body.
That we are led by his spirit, and the woman should be in submission to what he teaches us.
That Christ as the head and authority leads the church, the church doesn't lead God.
You know how we are told in the NT that they changed the laws? I'm talking about when he says..
Ye have heatd it said..but I say.. and when he blasts the lawyers and scribes for changing laws such as, honour thy father and mother..and how they changed it into a curse rather than a blessing?
Compare th original concerning it and then what Jesus sayd they changed it too..
Now this would be an example of the woman/church usurping authority over the man which is God as seen as her husband.
That the church/wife walked contrary to God with what he said and decided to teach it their own way.
Thus, they took the authority upon themself to be the leader of itself rather than being in submission to the husband Christ.
does this make sense Luv?
Big Hugs coming at ya... 
lone |
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luvnlife
Goldfish
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Women are to be submissive to their husbands. The church is to be submissive to God and to Jesus.
Women are not under the authority of every male being just because he is a man.
I have given my husband authority over me and he is a wise, gentle and good man. I also have given myself to be in subjection to my Lord and to my God.
Paul was speaking to a certain congregation in certain times regarding certain behaviors taking place in that church at that time.
Gods law from Genesis puts a woman under the authority of her husband, not every male being in the world.
Luv |
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