Once Saved Always Saved!

Nobby · Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:43 pm Post subject: Once Saved Always Saved!

Hi Christian Friends,
What do you think Question

Love,

Nobby

Ron · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 7

Hello to some familiar names here and greetings to those I do not know.

Interesting topic nobby.

I do not think I can say difinitively which way I believe. I guess I believe Scripture tells us that those that are truely in Christ cannot be lost. But that is the real question isn't it, are we that think we are in Christ, really in Christ?

Some Scriptural reference for those here to comment on perhaps will open this discussion.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, 3:11 And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat? 3:23 therefore Jehovah God sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken. 3:24 And He drove out the man. And He placed cherubs at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected.

1 Corinthians 10:12 So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 Kings 13:21-22 And he cried to the man of God who came from Judah, saying, So says Jehovah, Because you have not obeyed the mouth of Jehovah and have not kept the command which Jehovah your God commanded you, but came back and have eaten bread and have drunk water in the place which He said to you, You shall not eat bread nor drink water, your body shall not come to the tomb of your fathers.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul. And not one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own. But they had all things common. Acts 5:4-5Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God. And hearing these words, Ananias fell down and expired.

Luk 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy. And these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Acts 1:16-17, 25 ... Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus. 1:17 For he was numbered with us and had obtained part of this ministry. 1:25 to take the share of this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell, to go to his own place.

Was Ananias saved? He was counted as part of those who believed and were of one heart.

Was Judas saved? He was counted a part of the apostolic ministry "from which he fell to go to his own place".

What do you all think?

Nobby · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject: Once Saved Always Saved?

Hi Ron,
Glad to have you.
Yes I have some, mostly just opinions on the subject.
But it does make a subject of Question

RevJP · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject:

Take a look at this dissertation regarding this very topic:

http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/heb2.html

It is a touch long but extremely well sorth the time.

Benzer22already · Newbie Alert Joined: 20 Oct 2003 Posts: 2

I think it is a good idea to check out the views of both Calvinism and Arminianism first before moving on here, for it's clear to me that many folks who call themselves Calvinists actually are far off in their view of taking this position, and the other way around as well. Some claim Calvinism and don't know the five points of Calvinism, as well as Arminianism as well. If anyone is interested take a good look at this link and read it carefully with much thought and go through the scriptures as well. It is pretty thought provoking to the true seeker of truth.

http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm

This above link describes my view on the matter for I have never been truly convinced that Arminianism or Calvinism is completely true, for there is truth in both. Might I also add that God's ways are higher then ours and his ways past finding out so it's always safe to stay straight to scritpure even if it seems illogical. A good example of this taught in Scripture is the Trinity. It is completely against my own understanding yet it is clearly taught in Scripture.
May God give you ears to hear what His Spirit says to us every day and now as you read this.
Your brother,
Benjamin

metothezero · Tadpole Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

Benzer, I would have to disagree with you on the point of whether or not the idea of the trinity is actually taught in the scriptures...perhaps you would like to discuss this further in another forum.

On the idea of once saved always saved, I think a verse that pretty much settles it for me is found in Hebrews six, which says if you can lose your salvation it is impossible to get it back....

RevJP · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:15 am Post subject:

Good point meto.

If one can lose one's salvation then the opposite of 'Once saved, always saved' would be true - Once lost, always lost.

I don't think one can lose one's salvation, loose one's rewards, yes, salvation? No.

BTW, most folks (believers) that I know consider themselves Christians and call themselves Christians - don't know too many that call themselves Calvinists or Arminians...

Ron · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 7

I think we all have struggled with this issue at one time or another. I know personally I have really revised my own thinking as I study deeper into God's Word.

We have been told about the shepherd who finds one sheep missing. He does not rest until that sheep is back in the fold.

I think for those that are earnestly saved by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus are now considered one of His sheep . And our Good Shepherd will not leave a single sheep behind.

metothezero · Tadpole Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

Van · Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:17 am Post subject: Hebrews 6:4-6

John the Baptist · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:33 am Post subject:

-----------------Please pay close attention to the Wording of Christ in this Virgin Parable!------------------

Virgin denotes 'purity'. Man could be pure only 'IN' Christ. (Rom. 8:1- Acts 5:32) So we see that this purity was in the Virgin doctrinal teachings and is conditional. For man (or fold) could be in or out of Christ as they had freedom of will. The Wheat or Tare concept is not the subject seen here. We are finding the END result of James 1:15's 'Final Mature Decision being made!

Second we see that this is a 'Parable'. So it can be understood only with Christ's spiritual disclosure to us, or by His disclosure to the disciples that He has told us that He will do! Rom. 8:14 & *Mark 4:33-*34.

Then, we can also understand that this is repeated history as the Word of God emphatically tells us! (see Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15)

We will cover this Parable with this truth in mind. Remember that we are living with this knowledge in full view! and with this being a well documented Truth of Christ's Word, at our fingertips. All are required to check out His Word until we get it right! (see Matt. 4:4)

In Matt 17:16-19 we see a Virgin Fold brought to view. Verse 16 Is Christ asking Peter .. "Whom do people say that I am?" And with this we can see who the Rock of the FOLD is built upon! (not Peter as 's'atan desires one to believe) But the thought needs to be understood that if it falters completely, or if it leaves the Truth of Christ's 'Everlasting Gospel, or Everlasting Covenant, it is no longer built upon Christ the Rock! (see Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20) In verse 18-19 of Matt. 16 we see Christ giving the 'keys' of the kingdom unto the Virgin Fold that is His church. And that it is they who shall bind or loose in heaven by binding or loosing the on earth. And in Luke 12:47-48 we can rest assured what will be their fate if they prove unfaithful! A whole Fold or Fold's'. See Rev. 17:5!

In this 'church denomination' of Matt. 16:13-19 lets build a little more on as seen over in Matt. 18:14-18. Then we will go back to the Virgin Parable of Matt. 25.
To be Christ's representative on earth (act in His stead) they must first be faithful! (see Rev. 2:5 & remember that Virgin Israel in 'doctrine' only had just been rejected)

Now in Matt. 18:17-18 we see it again stated:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. ...

Pause! Remember that this is the new church. All of this had been done by Gods faithful, to Israel of olds now past Virgin Fold! They were now desolate of Christ! Matt. 23:38. They rejected Him & a new leader had now taken over. (compare Rev. 3:9) So this first part of these verses MUST be done & was & will always be done if the VIRGIN FOLD is to follow on with the Everlasting Gospel Plan. (or else as the earlier verses show, the whole fold will be rejected) Only a faithful denominational fold will have the keys of the kingdom! But let us continue on with the Masters Words.

...And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN: AND WHATSOEVER YE SHALL LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN." Do you believe the Masters Words! Will you accept His Written testimony? What Christ has said is that when one is accepted into the True Virgin Fold that He has established here on 'earth' by baptism, then their name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life in heavenly Zion's record book! And if one has his name removed because of open unrepentant sin, (after the person has fulfilled the obligation of the previous verses) it is then that the person is to be removed from the record books even in heaven itself! And if the 'fold' as a whole is not faithful? Then they too will be removed and Christ will again start fresh with ones that will love enough to be responsible. Rev. 2:5

Now back to Matt. 25 parable, & then on to 'some' of Matt. 10:5-38 for the meaning of Christ's.. "..when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples."

We see in verse 1 Christ comparing ... "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten Virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the Bridegroom." In Matt. 10:5-6 the disciples were to 'go forth' to the [lost sheep of the house of Israel]. Notice in verse 5 of Matt. 25? that they are ALL FAST ASLEEP. Remember that is was Christ, John, and the disciples that were [outside] of the yoked membership of Israel. (John even had converts) The only way that the Virgins of Matt. 25 could be saved was to go forth to meet the Bridegroom. (Christ) And we see that it was their Midnight CRY! AND WHO GAVE IT? AND WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Only these OUTSIDE ones were Awakened from the start. These ones were 'separated from the 'yoked membership'. (see Rev. 18:4 for comparison)
And ln verse 6 as to an end time repeated Truth..."Go ye out to meet Him." OUTSIDE! Again their 'fold' had become D-E-S-L-A-T-E of Christ, He was put out! Finally killed by His OWN!

Now comes another truth! (TWOFOLD) We see a 'closed door' in verse 10. Probation for Christ's Virgin fold or denomination finally had their probation CLOSED as a denomination! And we know what Christ now did, A new Fold was begun with the same Virgin Doctrines and with Him as 'their leader'. And the one that He was rejected by?? They made havoc with Christ and His followers in the new fold. And again, in Matt. 10:23 we see the exact same history being told for the last day Virgin Fold that is again repeating itself! (remember that it was Christ that was already there speaking)

It might be well to mention that there was to be a 'MIDNIGHT CRY' to awaken the ALL sleeping Virgins of Israel. And the 5 wise did leave while the other half stayed put, these did not have enough 'oil in their vessels'! But make no mistake, it does give understanding that they did have some oil of Christ's Righteous Love. (see Rev. 3:16-17's sickening 'lukewarm' love) We often think that the 'Midnight' Cry was quick & an quickly responded to decision, but as Matt. 10:3-38 documents, it was a 'seven times' 27-34 AD Midnight Cry.

In 70 AD we know that Israel of old was 'ALL' slaughtered as a city & nation. (see Eze. 9 for the repeat) Yet, still inside the fallen desolate of Christ's rejected fold, there were still 'new born' babes that were immature as of yet, (see Matt. 23:15) these still had a chance to leave. Their 'door' of probation had not closed as of yet, they were given until 70 AD to leave! (see Matt. 24:14-20 .. take note that these ones were still to be 7th day Sabbath keepers!) Then comes what both Christ & Paul stated in the history repeat, that when Christ comes the 'second' time, that "He will cut it short in righteousness! This was the Loud Cry to them! The parallel is that of Rev. 14:6-10. The LOUD CRY is that of the Worlds Warning against taking the Mark of the Beast. Yet, as seen in Israel of old & again in today's setting, just as Virgin Israel of old was 'JUDGED FIRST' before the 'Loud Cry', so also were these seen in 1 Peter 4:17!

This is where you are at in the Present Day Truth! "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, (ex/bride of Christ!) And desired [of him] letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Just in closing let it be known that it is because ISRAEL is DESOLATE of CHRIST that they need the Power of Caesar to do 's'atans work. Rev. 3:9

---John or P/N/B/

Van · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject:

Alternately, Matthew 25:1-13 teaches that only those who prudently prepare and are ready for the return of the king will enter into the kingdom. Do not expect the preparations of fellow church members to allow you to see the kingdom of God.

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

i think Jesus might explain this in luke 8v5 onwards.

God bless.

John the Baptist · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:01 pm Post subject:

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51