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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:09 am Post subject: |
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this is not directed at anyone in particular.
Gen 2:15-18 The commandment not to eat was given to Adam before Eve was created.
Gen 3:1-3 Scripture does not say what gender the serpent was. It may have been male. Nor does Scripture say that God told Eve about the commandment. She may have learned it through Adam. This would account for the additional words she put in. At any rate it was Adam’s duty to see that it was kept since he was created first and he was the one God gave the commandment to in the first place.
Gen 3:6 Adam was with her when the serpent spoke. He could have stopped Eve but he didn’t. I think (and this is definitely a Sheila opinion) that Adam wanted to see what would happen, so he allowed Eve to eat. When she didn’t fall over dead like he expected, he figured it was safe and he ate too. Scripture says Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he ate. It says, not that she seduced him, not that she persuaded him, just that she put it in his hand. Adam ate it all by himself. He could have dropped it. He could have spit it out. He didn’t, he ate it – that is unless you think she put it in his mouth and made him chew and swallow, which seems far fetched to me.
Gen 3:9-13 Adam blamed Eve, of course; and Eve blamed the serpent. The serpent didn’t make Eve eat anymore than Eve made Adam eat. All three were equally guilty.
This reminds me of the toilet seat argument. Women supposedly gripe because men don’t put the seat back down, but I’ve never heard it put the other way. And yes I believe men should gripe because women don’t put the seat back up. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:17 am Post subject: |
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van said: | Quote: | | The account of Deborah is given in the Book of Judges, chapters 4 and 5. She was a prophet of God, and she guided Israel in the defeat of Sisera. In may be that God used her, a woman, to heighten God's victory "for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman" (Judges 4:9). |
God used a woman because the man he instructed deborah to send would not go without her. i wonder if he was scared. it wasn't deborah who defeated sisera it was a woman named jael. (sorry, i get so tired of supposed male superiority and i find it in topics like this one all the time. i try not to be aggressively feminist. i think equal but different should be acceptable.) |
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Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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shepreach wrote, it was not Deborah that defeated Sisera, it was a woman named Jael."
Well, first it was the Lord that defeated Sisera. Second it was Jael that killed Sisera after his army had been routed, and he was hiding in Jael's tent. So the question remains, did God use a woman to heighten his victory over Sisera? I say yes.
Next, who was Deborah referring to in verse 9? Deborah or Jael?
When I wrote about this verse in an earlier post, I thought Deborah was referring to herself? I think that was a mistake. She may have very well been referring to Jael.
I come to this conclusion because Barak did receive honor in the song of Deborah (That the leaders led) as a blessing from the Lord. So the "honor" that Barak did not receive was to kill or capture Sisera on the battlefield.
In summary, Jael was not a leader, judge or prophet, and therefore no action she took can be used to support the idea of God ordaining woman to lead men. Deborah, on the other hand, was a prophet and a judge and a leader used by God to defeat a wicked king's army.
Did God use women, in the same way he used a young shephard boy (David) to route a superior force, or a small army to route a large army, all for the purpose of highlighting that it was God and not the efforts of men that brought victory? Again, I say yes.
Therefore, in conclusion, to use Deborah, as evidence of that God did not mean it when he said to appoint as elders men, the husband of one wife, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict, is unsound because it misses the message of Deborah. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Van said:
| Quote: | | In summary, Jael was not a leader, judge or prophet, and therefore no action she took can be used to support the idea of God ordaining woman to lead men. Deborah, on the other hand, was a prophet and a judge and a leader used by God to defeat a wicked king's army. |
Judges 4:4-5
| Quote: | | 4At that time Deborah, a prophetess, wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel. 5She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the Israelites came up to her for judgment. |
I did not say that Jael was a leader, only that she, not Deborah, was used to defeat Sisera. Nor did I try to use Deborah as a reason to ordain women. I merely stated that she was a judge of a theocracy and not just a government figure.
And Van said:
| Quote: | | Therefore, in conclusion, to use Deborah, as evidence of that God did not mean it when he said to appoint as elders men, the husband of one wife, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict, is unsound because it misses the message of Deborah. |
This is something else that I did not do. |
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HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I would seriously suggest sticking firmly with the word of God on all subjects. To arrogantly disregard the wisdom tought through the Holy words of the Holy Bible would seem to be folly to me. Especially if doing so means doing the very same exact thing as the one who brought original sin into the world of man... and the same gender too... hmmm... convincingly nagging the man all over again that to eat from the tree will not surely kill him.
I think to use arguments about other aspects of women's roles in the Bible is moot. Of course women are important in EVERY aspect of mankind... physical and spiritual. But that is not the point of the matter. The matter is that it is forever written that until the Lord Jesus Christ returns, women are not to teach or to have spiritual authority over men.
I tell you the truth: Manly wisdom will never prevail against godly wisdom.
Despite what society thinks... ever... the word of God holds true.
If obeying the word of God means to lose forever a certain title... a certain hat... of man... yet keeping favor in the eye of God... I'd go for the obeying part. To do otherwise I think, would be an issue of pride rather than truth. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hekkler wrote:
| Quote: | | I would seriously suggest sticking firmly with the word of God on all subjects. To arrogantly disregard the wisdom tought through the Holy words of the Holy Bible would seem to be folly to me. Especially if doing so means doing the very same exact thing as the one who brought original sin into the world of man... and the same gender too... hmmm... convincingly nagging the man all over again that to eat from the tree will not surely kill him. |
so you think the serpent was a female? you did not say the one who sinned first you said the one who brought the original sin into the world of man -- that was the serpent.
as for nagging, neither eve nor i did that. if that's what your bible says i would like to know which version you are using so i can read it for myself.
and hekkler said.
| Quote: | | The matter is that it is forever written that until the Lord Jesus Christ returns, women are not to teach or to have spiritual authority over men. |
does that include male children? or is the teaching different at different ages?
i do what God has called me to do. i don't care what you call it or even if you call it anything. i nurture a local congregation. i do not set the rules for them or for anyone else. i don't ask or tell them to follow me or what i say, but to follow what the Word says. you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, and you don't have to attend my church, but i do have to do what God has called me to do. if that offends you take it up with God. |
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HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| shepreach wrote: | | so you think the serpent was a female? you did not say the one who sinned first you said the one who brought the original sin into the world of man -- that was the serpent. |
No, the serpent was not female. Eve, being the first to sin, and the original human being to lead another astray to sin, was the first to bring sin into the world of man. The serpent offered the choice and the false logic, and Eve accepted it.
| Quote: | | as for nagging, neither eve nor i did that. |
Ok.  I knew the word nag would raise a hair or two. I used it in jest, only.  But... we do not know exactly how Eve persuaded Adam to sin, so you do not know if she 'nagged' him into sinning or not. Eve was a perfect woman, though, so maybe all she had to do was to blink one eyelid to make Adam do whatever she wanted.
| Quote: | | does that include male children? or is the teaching different at different ages? |
I would take the words for what they state, and not try to twist the matter at hand to fit our own purposes. Pride...
| Quote: | | i do what God has called me to do. i don't care what you call it or even if you call it anything. i nurture a local congregation. i do not set the rules for them or for anyone else. i don't ask or tell them to follow me or what i say, but to follow what the Word says. you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, and you don't have to attend my church, but i do have to do what God has called me to do. if that offends you take it up with God. |
?
Offend me? Why would I be offended? I do not attend church at all, nor plan on doing so anytime in the near future. So what happens in the church is not my concern, but rather an interesting topic from a distance.
Shepreach, please do whatever you feel you are called to do by God, and do it with all your heart. But this argument is parrallel to what should be learned truthfully by the story of Adam and Eve. If you do not see the similarities... then you are not meant to see them. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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do you think that eve would have sinned if the serpent had not tempted her? if the answer to that is no, then the serpent brought it in. eve did not bring it she committed it.
hekkler wrote: | Quote: | Quote:
does that include male children? or is the teaching different at different ages?
I would take the words for what they state, and not try to twist the matter at hand to fit our own purposes. Pride... |
wasn't trying to twist, just wondered when you thought 1 Tim. 2:12 should begin to be observed -- at birth or later, and if later at what age?
besides this verse was written by Paul who often gives his own opinion of the way things should be. and he only says i. woman translates as wife and man translates as husband.
and: | Quote: | | But... we do not know exactly how Eve persuaded Adam to sin, so you do not know if she 'nagged' him into sinning or not. Eve was a perfect woman, though, so maybe all she had to do was to blink one eyelid to make Adam do whatever she wanted. |
Gen 3:6 says nothing about persuasion. it only says she gave it to him. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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you're right, it does not say she persuaded Adam, it says she gave it to him and he did eat...
So not only did Eve disobey God, she snuck the forbidden fruit onto Adam's supperplate to draw him into her sin... pretty sneaky little wench wasn't she? |
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Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Just a note of caution, Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible for sinning, for disobeying the word of God, for breaking the Adamic Covenent. Not Eve. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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i posted this earlier but here it is again.
| Quote: | Gen 2:15-18 The commandment not to eat was given to Adam before Eve was created.
Gen 3:1-3 Scripture does not say what gender the serpent was. It may have been male. Nor does Scripture say that God told Eve about the commandment. She may have learned it through Adam. This would account for the additional words she put in. At any rate it was Adam’s duty to see that it was kept since he was created first and he was the one God gave the commandment to in the first place.
Gen 3:6 Adam was with her when the serpent spoke. He could have stopped Eve but he didn’t. I think (and this is definitely a Sheila opinion) that Adam wanted to see what would happen, so he allowed Eve to eat. When she didn’t fall over dead like he expected, he figured it was safe and he ate too. Scripture says Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he ate. It says, not that she seduced him, not that she persuaded him, just that she put it in his hand. Adam ate it all by himself. He could have dropped it. He could have spit it out. He didn’t, he ate it – that is unless you think she put it in his mouth and made him chew and swallow, which seems far fetched to me. |
rev jp said:
| Quote: | | So not only did Eve disobey God, she snuck the forbidden fruit onto Adam's supperplate to draw him into her sin... pretty sneaky little wench wasn't she? |
since he saw her eat the fruit there was nothing sneaky about it. it's just that men are still behaving like adam and blaming some one else for things that never would have happened if they had been exercising their God given responsibility. btw my husband also does this. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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to hekkler,
i do see the similarity. i just see it from the opposite side. that doesn't mean you're wrong, but it doesn't mean i'm wrong either. |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
just thought i'd stick this in ,thought it might help.
God bless.
paul |
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HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| shepreach wrote: | to hekkler,
i do see the similarity. i just see it from the opposite side. that doesn't mean you're wrong, but it doesn't mean i'm wrong either. |
Very true.
I think that Eve was not deceived... innocently duped... as it is suggested, by the serpent. Her first sin is deeper than that. Her second, even worse.
Eve conciously made the decision to disobey God's direct command (sin #1), then she deliberately led Adam to follow her in her transgression (sin #2). In fact, the serpent, in his cleverness, deliberately had Eve re-introduce God's command, right before she broke it.
Gen 3:1 ... He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden?'?"
3:2-3 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
So, despite whatever the serpent said afterwords to fill Eve's desires, this clearly shows that Eve was not remotely in the dark about God's command. Satan even made sure of it. She was duped by her pride, her own sinful desire to be on a level higher than her own, and in her desire she sinned again by leading dumb 'ol Adam astray with her.
| shepreach wrote: | | since he saw her eat the fruit there was nothing sneaky about it. |
| Quote: | | Adam was with her when the serpent spoke. |
I do not see evidence that Adam was with Eve as she spake with the serpent. Adam is noted as being with Eve only after it is written that Eve made the choice to consume the fruit. And though it says he was there, we still do not know that he knew what he was even eating.
BUT... we do know that Eve tought Adam how to commit sin. She not only gave him the fruit to eat, eating first to be the example, but she also spoke words to him to get him to eat the fruit. Gen 3:17 To Adam He said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must eat of it.'
They were both wrong... very... Eve for taking matters into her own hands, therefore overlooking the command of God through her arrogance and pride... and Adam was even more idiotic for listening to her in her sins.
Women are definitely able to teach, and to preach the word of God. Everything righteous in me... everything good in me... was instilled in me through the teachings and dicipline of my mother from the beginning. To me personally, honestly, my mother is the most Holy being of man walking this planet today. The only one above her is Jesus Christ in my eyes.
But I would not blatantly disregard the word of God for my mother's pride's sake because she is a woman. If she asked me my opinion of her being a minister for a church, I would point her to Paul's writtings, and hope that she makes the right decision based on truth.
| shepreach wrote: | | this verse was written by Paul who often gives his own opinion of the way things should be. and he only says i. |
True. Paul does state his opinions on women ministering and on marriage. He does seem to want people to know that these are not rules that must be met for salvation, but that these are clear cut, well thought through suggestions by one who uses true wisdom from God. When followers of the church begin to deviate from the wisdom of their apostles... hmmm... well... what does that say for authority in the church? A little yeast works through the whole dough, right? Wouldn' then even more 'restrictions' be challenged and re-vamped and revised... leading even further away from the teachings of the original apostles?
There is much wisdom to be found in the truth of Paul's teachings... underlying and overlying the pride of Man. |
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HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Just a note of caution, Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible for sinning, for disobeying the word of God, for breaking the Adamic Covenent. Not Eve. |
Hmmm... I beg to differ a bit here, Van. Adam was responsible for Man sinning. Eve is responsible for being the first to sin. She spoke to Adam in order for him to sin. She tought man how to sin.
Had Adam not followed Eve's advise and sin... who knows what would have happened? Another woman created in order to preserve a sin free mankind? Another rib lost for men? Lord knows... |
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