 |
ChristianDiscussion.com
Public Christian Discussion and Christian Debate Forums
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
|
 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:38 am Post subject: |
 |
|
In the same way, I differ from your view. Eve did not teach Adam to sin. Adam blamed Eve for his act of sin, sure enough, but each of us are responsible for our own deeds.
Before Eve was created, God told Adam that if he did eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die. This suggests, at least to me, that Adam both had the capacity to eat and the knowledge of how to eat and therefore knew how to do what God said not to do. Adam knew how to disobey the word of God before Eve was created.
The concept that Eve was decieved by her own pride and greed, rather than the false words of the satan, is also not supported by scripture. Eve says that the serpent deceived her. Yes, she appears to be shifting blame as well. But, note in the next verse, God says to the serpent, because you have done this.... So I understand that the serpent was being held responsible for decieving Eve. So while it is true that Eve was responsible for her deeds, which were sinful in that they trespassed the command of God, the consequence of her sin did cause sin and death to enter the world. Logically it could be that her sinful actions were mitigated by the deception of Satan. On the other hand, while Adam listened to Eve, there is no indication of deception or guile.
Adam, it seems to me sinned all on his own.
Therefore by one man's sin (and that would be Adam alone, not Eve, and not Adam and Eve) sin and death entered the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Van wrote: | | This suggests, at least to me, that Adam both had the capacity to eat and the knowledge of how to eat and therefore knew how to do what God said not to do. Adam knew how to disobey the word of God before Eve was created. |
Hmmm...
I still must disagree, Van. You say that Adam knew how to disobey God. How? Where is the scripture to support this?
| Quote: | | Eve did not teach Adam to sin. |
Then you are saying that Eve did not only show Adam, by example, that eating the fruit did not surely kill her, and speak to Adam about eating the fruit also? If not, then why did God punish Adam for listening to Eve and eating of the fruit?
| Quote: | | The concept that Eve was decieved by her own pride and greed, rather than the false words of the satan, is also not supported by scripture. |
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
Do not forget that the logic Satan used on Eve was Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The thirst for power overrode Eve's thirst for favor in God's eye. Greed... pride... the downfall of man.
| Quote: | | Eve says that the serpent deceived her. Yes, she appears to be shifting blame as well. But, note in the next verse, God says to the serpent, because you have done this.... So I understand that the serpent was being held responsible for decieving Eve. |
Despite what Eve said, the truth is written. Satan gave Eve the idea, but Eve acted on her own account. "The devil made me do it!", she exclaimed. So? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't no much of anything to respond to. If your last post seems solid to you, there is nothing I can say. I mean I mention the verses that illustrate your position is invalid, and you respond show me the verse? I say Adam listened to Eve and you say "Then you are saying that Eve did not only show Adam, by example, that eating the fruit did not surely kill her, and speak to Adam about eating the fruit also?"
If you cannot see your defense of your position rests in rhetoric rather than logic, so be it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MoJo
Big Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 48
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the point is that Eve was taken from Adam's rib and the woman made subject to the man. As the head, the transgression fell to Adam. In the same way, Jesus as the head, took on our iniquities.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I say Adam listened to Eve and you say "Then you are saying that Eve did not only show Adam, by example, that eating the fruit did not surely kill her, and speak to Adam about eating the fruit also?"
If you cannot see your defense of your position rests in rhetoric rather than logic, so be it. |
Rhetoric rather than logic? Ok...
That question was in reply to your saying that Eve did not teach Adam, not that you deny her speaking to Adam. I thought you would understand that from me quoting your very words... 
Logic... wisdom... suggests to me that teaching consists of demonstration and instruction. Logic... wisdom... not rhetoric, mind you... suggests to me that there is a very convincing similarity between the moral of Eve's demonstration and instruction of eating the forbidden fruit to Adam, and the apostle Paul's suggestion of not having women teach or have spiritual authority over man, and for women to learn in full submission to man.
But... maybe I'm just delusional... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the points are all clear. Adam and Eve were created to be one unit, equal but seperate. They blew it and sinned, each sinned, each was held accountable for their transgression (including the serpent BTW) regardless of how they tried to shift the blame.
The point is we are all responsible for our own transgressions no matter the circumstances.
and then:
The Apostle Paul has told us that women should not be in spiritual authority over man, and admonsishes us to let the women be silent in church.
Culturally if one wants to decide when a mother should 'relinquish' spiritual authority over her sons one would simply ask when does a boy become a man in jewish tradition since this was clearly the deleniating point for Paul.
Ultimately I would have to err on the side of the Scriptures regardless of ones desire to classify Pauls letters as his opinion based on his culturally induced patriarichal leanings. Women should not be in Spirtual authority of men - they should not lead congregations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now you've got it. You did not teach me how to be delusional by example, I already knew how to do it in high style.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 283
Location: Palmyra,Missouri USA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey I've got it all figgered out!
God created man & rested. 
God Created woman &...............
......Nobody has rested sence   |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Heckler said:
| Quote: | I think that Eve was not deceived... innocently duped... as it is suggested, by the serpent. Her first sin is deeper than that. Her second, even worse.
Eve conciously made the decision to disobey God's direct command (sin #1), then she deliberately led Adam to follow her in her transgression (sin #2). In fact, the serpent, in his cleverness, deliberately had Eve re-introduce God's command, right before she broke it.
Gen 3:1 ... He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden?'?"
3:2-3 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' |
The command was never given to Eve. There were 2 trees in the middle of the garden and Adam & Eve were allowed to eat from one of them
And:
| Quote: | | I do not see evidence that Adam was with Eve as she spake with the serpent. Adam is noted as being with Eve only after it is written that Eve made the choice to consume the fruit. And though it says he was there, we still do not know that he knew what he was even eating. |
Gen 2:15-18
| Quote: | | 15The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” 18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.” |
Adam knew what he was doing. He had the commandment straight from God’s mouth. The commandment not to eat was given to Adam before Eve was created.
Genesis 3:1-3
| Quote: | | 1Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’” |
Scripture does not say what gender the serpent was. It may have been male. Nor does Scripture say that God told Eve about the commandment. She may have learned it through Adam. This would account for the additional words she put in. At any rate it was Adam’s duty to see that it was kept since he was created first and he was the one God gave the commandment to in the first place.
Gen 3:6
| Quote: | | 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. |
Adam was with her when the serpent spoke. He could have stopped Eve but he didn’t. I think (and this is definitely a Sheila opinion) that Adam wanted to see what would happen, so he allowed Eve to eat. When she didn’t fall over dead like he expected, he figured it was safe and he ate too. Scripture says Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he ate. It says, not that she seduced him, not that she persuaded him, just that she put it in his hand. Adam ate it all by himself. He could have dropped it. He could have spit it out. He didn’t, he ate it – that is unless you think she put it in his mouth and made him chew and swallow, which seems far fetched to me.
Genesis 3:7
| Quote: | | 7Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. |
If you really want to split hairs on this, verse seven seems to say that Eve’s eyes weren’t opened until after Adam ate.
since he saw her eat the fruit there was nothing sneaky about it. it's just that men are still behaving like adam and blaming some one else for things that never would have happened if they had been exercising their God given responsibility. btw my husband also does this.
And:
| Quote: | | True. Paul does state his opinions on women ministering and on marriage. He does seem to want people to know that these are not rules that must be met for salvation, but that these are clear cut, well thought through suggestions by one who uses true wisdom from God. When followers of the church begin to deviate from the wisdom of their apostles... hmmm... well... what does that say for authority in the church? |
In 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul is speaking of husband and wife. He is reiterating what he has said before; that women are not to take away their husband’s authority, which is very different from ministering. As a minister you have no authority of your own you are under the authority of God. Paul also suggested that people not marry, then turned right around and said that young widows should marry to keep them out of trouble.
1 Corinthians 7:34b, 35
| Quote: | | And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. 35I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord. |
1 Timothy 5:11-14
| Quote: | | 11But refuse to put younger widows on the list; for when their sensual desires alienate them from Christ, they want to marry, 12and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge. 13Besides that, they learn to be idle, gadding about from house to house; and they are not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not say. 14So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, and manage their households, so as to give the adversary no occasion to revile us. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
In 1 Timothy 5:17, scripture says that Elders that rule well are deserving of honor. This means they exercise authority over the members of their local assembly. Therefore, to assert that church leadership by women does not include exercising authority over men is wrong.
In Genesis 3:6, scripture says that Adam was with Eve when she gave him the fruit to eat. Whether Adam was present when Eve ate, or when Eve was deceived by the serpent is an unstated possibility.
In Genesis 3:7, Shepreach makes a very good point, one I had not realized before, that Eve's eyes were not opened when she ate, but only after Adam also ate. This suggests a number of things. First, this is consistent with sin entering by Adam and not by Eve because she was deceived. Second, the knowledge of the tree of good and evil came only after commiting evil (the action of Adam) and that the effect spread to Eve even though she was not a decendent of Adam after he sinned, suggesting the corruption of being "in Adam" is spread spiritually rather than genetically through reproduction.
Adam is cursed for two sins, listening to the voice of his wife and eating from the tree which God commanded not to eat. Since there is nothing wrong with listening to your wife, or the wife listening to the husband, I interprete the problem as listening to the wife when she proposes action inconsistent with the clearly indicated will of God. In other words, Adam's sin was adultery (spiritual adultery, turning from God and not adhereing to God in loving obedence). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | In Genesis 3:7, Shepreach makes a very good point, one I had not realized before, that Eve's eyes were not opened when she ate, but only after Adam also ate. |
Scripture says "Then the eyes of both of them were opened." . I seriously doubt that eating from the tree would only take affect after both Adam and Eve consumed of it. That verse, in my opinion, shows that after Adam also ate from the tree, that both of their eyes were then opened.
If Eve's eyes were opened first, from eating of the fruit first, then logic notes that surely she would have gained the hidden knowledge of the fruit first. And perhaps with her new knowledge gained, she shared some of it with Adam, therefore adding to Adam's temptation. Thinking of this, I am led to remember an excerpt from "The Apocalypse of Adam" that was left on a biblediscussion.com thread, that goes like this:
| Quote: | | She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. |
That was Adam speaking to Seth about him and Eve before they were punished by God. Adam himself proclaims that Eve did teach him. And it is suggested that her teaching was spiritually inclined... a word of knowledge of the eternal God... therefore, Eve had spiritual authority over Adam, for she knew and taught Adam spiritual knowledge that he did not know.
I acknowledge of course, that it could have went the other way too, for anything is possible, and we will never surely know exactly how it went down without the Lord Christ making it known to us.
Still delusional...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HeKkLeR
Sea Monkey
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: |
Quote:
The Apocalypse of Adam
Translated by George W. MacRae
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundreth year, saying:
Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the earth, along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which we had come forth. She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the god who had created us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.
Then God, the ruler of the aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath. Then we became two aeons. And the glory in our heart(s) left us, me and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed within us. And it (glory) fled from us; it entered into [...] great [...] which had come forth, not from this aeon from which we had come forth, I and Eve your mother. But it (knowledge) entered into the seed of great aeons. For this reason I myself have called you by the name of that man who is the seed of the great generation or from whom (it comes). After those days, the eternal knowledge of the God of truth withdrew from me and your mother Eve. Since that time, we learned about dead things, like men. Then we recognized the God who had created us. For we were not strangers to his powers. And we served him in fear and slavery. And after these things, we became darkened in our heart(s). Now I slept in the thought of my heart. |
I just thought I'd leave the entire excerpt for you to read, so as not to show bias. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Van said:
| Quote: | | In 1 Timothy 5:17, scripture says that Elders that rule well are deserving of honor. This means they exercise authority over the members of their local assembly. Therefore, to assert that church leadership by women does not include exercising authority over men is wrong. |
This is true. But I have never claimed to be an elder nor have I ever claimed to be a leader. I have a conference board (male), a bishop (male), and a district superintendent (male) over me. At my particular church, I have an administrative board (also male) to keep me in line. Hopefully all these are under God’s authority, also. I nurture a local congregation, I do not rule it. I preach, I visit, I conduct funeral and marriage services, receive members, and sometimes present the sacraments. However, I am allowed to do none of this outside the congregation I nurture. And can only do these things as long as the men who are over me allow me to. I don’t think this qualifies me as a leader who exercises authority over anyone.
Being a pastor was not something I chose for myself. I was perfectly happy being a housewife/homemaker whose husband spoiled her rotten; sitting in my recliner wearing a gown, robe and fuzzy slippers while holding a coke in one hand and the TV remote in the other was the height of my ambition. I didn’t ask God to call me. He just did. I tried every way I could think of to get out of it; I used every argument I’ve read on this board; I tried my church’s lay speaking program; but nothing worked. I finally came to the conclusion that God is God and He calls whom he will. So here I am a pastor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Van
Growing Guppy
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 44
Location: San Clemente California
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So let me summarize. You are a pastor that preaches. But you are not a leader. You do not exercise authority because others over you exercise authority. God is over them so they do not exercise authority either I suppose. Seems like a whole lot of rationalization is going on.
The word of God is clear - Elders are to be men. Elders that work hard at preaching are worthy of double honor. Elders are the leaders of the local assembly and teach the word. Inventing a position of pastor/preacher that is not an elder is without biblical support, obviously only a clever way to make the word of God to no effect.
Final point, the serpent should be considered as a male. Revelation 20:3 indicates that the dragon is the serpent of old, which I think refers to the serpent of Genesis 3, and then refers to this entity as he. But note that as a spiritual being he actually may not be of any physical sex, but we are informed by scripture to relate to him as if he were male rather than as if he were female. Same as when we relate to God the father. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
final word.
van said: | Quote: | | Elders are the leaders of the local assembly and teach the word. Inventing a position of pastor/preacher that is not an elder is without biblical support, obviously only a clever way to make the word of God to no effect. |
if i were an ordained elder, you might have a point. as it is i'm not. i'm a local pastor. i'll think about the rationalizing. that might be true. it wasn't what i thought i was doing. i was trying to explain where i stand in the heirarchy of my particular denomination.
i did not invent my position, i was appointed to it. that's something you'd need to talk to the denomination about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
