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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:34 am Post subject: Another quodlibet |
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| Was Jesus married to Mary? |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:56 am Post subject: |
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what???
God bless.
paul |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 284
Location: Palmyra,Missouri USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Rev, Why don't you ask "L. Davinci" He's the one that painted the picture that is in question! Right? 
I would say no wouldn't you? 
Nobby |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I would say undeniably - we have no idea. The Scriptures do not say one way or another - and to top it all off - it really doesn't matter!
Jesus as a bachelor or a husband makes little or no difference to His sacrifice for our sins does it? |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 284
Location: Palmyra,Missouri USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hy Rev,
I believe I beg to disagree with you.
I believe that if Jesus had been a husband it would have made a difference in His sacrifice.
He had to remain without sin. He never sinned not once.
My opinion. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| How would marriage equate to sin? If you are thinking of the intamacy between husband and wife then I beg to differ with you. Marital intamacy is in no way a sin. So indeed, Jesus could have been married (and a father) while still being without sin. |
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paul
Little Goldfish
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus couldn't be married,for His love would favor one more than others and if they had child it would be holy also.
did Jesus have the seed of man for He was born of His fathers seed so would His seed be of His father?
God bless.
paul |
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kiwimac
Not So Newbie
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 8
Location: Deepest, Darkest, NZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Was Jesus Married?
I consider that there is substantial cirumstantial proof that he was & in support of that I post the following.
| Quote: | FAQ 167
Would a Married Jesus Have Been Sinful?
NCW 18, April 1995
by Christopher C. Warren
Q. Why do you insist that Jesus was married when you know from the Scriptures that He lived a sinless life?
Firstly, we do not insist that He was. We insist only on what the Bible unequivocably says. Since the Bible neither directly affirms nor denies Jesus' marrital status, we insist that Bible-believers do no less either.
We also insist that Bible-believers honestly examine the historical background of the Bible and accept the known facts of Jewish life. And if, as it is known, the Jews of Jesus' time believed that singleness was selfish and a sin against the Israelite nation, then we must seriously ask ourselves whether a single, unmarried, celibate Jesus would have either gone unnoticed, been accepted or criticized by the people He lived with.
Given that the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes were desperately searching to find fault with Jesus' observance of the Law, it is rather remarkable, is it not, that no criticism was made against Him for supposedly being unmarried when they took especial pains to try and trip Him up for keeping company with the outcasts of society -- the ceremonially unclean prostitutes, tax-collectors, and even gentiles. Added to this is the undeniable fact that no authorized Rabbi -- as Jesus was -- could be unmarried. And if He had been unauthorized, He would have been silenced immediately.
Yes, we do indeed know, and testify, that Jesus lived a sinless life, and we know because the Bible says so (Heb.4:15). But we also know that the God of the Bible would never command an individual, let alone the whole human race, to commit a sin. We also know, because the Bible says so, that we are to become perfect as Jesus is, by following His exemplarary life-style (Matt.5:28,48; 1 Jn.4:18). So if Jesus were indeed unmarried, and since we are to follow His example in righteousness (Eph.5.1), ought we not to remain single too, since that would be the path of perfection and sinlessness? Or does God expect us to sin by marrying and then receive forgiveness from the One who was not allowed to "sin" by not marrying?
But then we have a contradiction here since it is written that women cannot be saved unless they give birth and rear children (1 Tim.2:15). Since they cannot do this without being married, it follows that the men must be married too to make them pregnant. But let us ignore this "problem" for the present...
To insist that Jesus was married is not a doctrine of salvation, but to insist the opposite -- that He was not married, in the face of the historical evidence, is surely dishonest. Those who believe He was not married can only truthfully say that the Bible is not equivocal about the matter and leave it at that.
It is an old Gnostic heresy that says marriage and sex are evil. How could something that God created, and declared to be "good", be evil (Gen.1:31)? Marriage and bringing forth children is a divine commandment to the whole race (Gen.1:28). As God entering human flesh and becoming man, Jesus, who obeyed the Law given to humans in every other respect, would not be exempted from marriage.
How, indeed, could He be tempted, as married people are, without being married Himself? For it is written: "(He) has been tempted in every way, just as we are..." (Heb.4:14, NIV). And who will deny that marriage has temptations?
It is our belief that Jesus lived a sinless life as a married man. He faced the temptations of the flesh as all men do and never fell once. He is indeed the saviour of marriage as well as the single estate. He entered flesh and experienced it completely (John 1:14).
We do not insist that all Christians accept this doctrine but we do insist that they give good solid evidence that Jesus was not married before being dogmatic. The fact that nothing is directly said about Him being married in the New Testament says nothing as to whether He was married or not because marriage was so normal that His being married would never have aroused any comment.
Rather, an unmarried Rabbi, apart from being unlawful, would most certainly have brought a stinging rebuke from the religious leaders of the day. Indeed, a single Jesus would never have been ordained a Rabbi and never been allowed to preach in the synagogues. There were no single religious leaders except in the Qumran community, an aesthetic sect living out in the Judaean wilderness who believed that the Messiah would be the angel Michael in human form.
To in any way say that marriage is sinful is to blaspheme the Creator-God who ordained and blessed it (Gen.2:24). Fruitfulness amd multiplication are signs of God's favour throughout the Bible and big families are encouraged. It was the Greeks who invented the idea that sex was evil, and Greek philosophy, mingled with Christianity in variant forms, has been the prevalent mode of thought of Europeans and their colonies.
The picture of a celibate Christ distorts both Judaism and Biblical Christianity. <snip> |
Kiwimac |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:12 am Post subject: |
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While I make no claims either way, it is a point of interest and the camp supporting the idea that He could have been married has very persuading arguments.
As for His being married constituting His love favoring one more than the rest - why so? The greeks have a wider definition of love than do we, Agape, etc. His love for His wife as a husband would be just that, it would in no way effect His love for His children, His love as God for His children. |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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rev jp wrote: | Quote: | | As for His being married constituting His love favoring one more than the rest - why so? The greeks have a wider definition of love than do we, Agape, etc. His love for His wife as a husband would be just that, it would in no way effect His love for His children, His love as God for His children. |
this is why.
1 Corinthians 7:32-34a NSRV
| Quote: | | 32I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, 34and his interests are divided. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| So then, to be good Christians we should remain unmarried? |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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1 Corinthians 7:32-38 NRSV
| Quote: | 32I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, 34and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. 35I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord.
36If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his fiancée, if his passions are strong, and so it has to be, let him marry as he wishes; it is no sin. Let them marry. 37But if someone stands firm in his resolve, being under no necessity but having his own desire under control, and has determined in his own mind to keep her as his fiancée, he will do well. 38So then, he who marries his fiancée does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better. |
no. but this was not the question you asked so i didn't post the whole passage. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 284
Location: Palmyra,Missouri USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Rev, You know better than that!  Your a knitpickin!  |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, couldn't resist such an obvious opening... 
However preach, your passage does not support your claim. Would you be grouping Christ with the common man? and would you assert that Paul is saying that a man cannot focus on a greater good if he is married?
Would not a father give his life for his children whether or not he was married? I know I would lay my life down for my children without thought, if it was the only thing to save them. I would not hesitate for the love of my wife - can the perfect Lord be capable of any less? |
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shepreach
Princess
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 114
Location: georgia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Rev jp said:
| Quote: | | However preach, your passage does not support your claim. Would you be grouping Christ with the common man? and would you assert that Paul is saying that a man cannot focus on a greater good if he is married? |
Christ was grouped with the common man. That’s why he was here in the first place, to be like us so that we could identify with Him. Paul didn’t say you couldn’t focus on a greater good, he said that your desire would be on how to please your wife. My husband will tell you that his wife takes a lot of attention. I always want him to do something – take out the trash, scratch my back, talk to me, and the list goes on. Most couples are this way. Then there is how to feed the family, of course Jesus wouldn’t have this problem he could just multiply loaves and fishes. But what would he do when she said, “Honey, don’t go. Stay here with me. You spend so much time with those other people. Can’t you spend just one day with me and little Joseph?”
And:
| Quote: | | Would not a father give his life for his children whether or not he was married? I know I would lay my life down for my children without thought, if it was the only thing to save them. I would not hesitate for the love of my wife - can the perfect Lord be capable of any less? |
No He would be capable of it, but at what cost?
Matthew 12:25 NRSV
| Quote: | | 25He knew what they were thinking and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. |
Luke 14:25-33 NRSV
| Quote: | | 25Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, 26“Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. 27Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to complete it? 29Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it will begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31Or what king, going out to wage war against another king, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32If he cannot, then, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for the terms of peace. 33So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. |
James 1:5-8 NRSV
| Quote: | | 5If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. 6But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7, 8for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord. |
I know these were written after but I can see their application here. Jesus was human with human thoughts and desires. Think about how hard it is for us to find God time with family and other responsibilities pressing on us. Now think what might happen if Jesus found himself in that situation. (Yes, I know He was God but he had to do things the human way with help from the Father and the Spirit while he was here.) |
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