Is Abortion Wrong?

Douay · Tadpole Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 17

I know from oral tradition handed down through the Church and from the Bible that animals have souls. The pope said so, the Bible says so, the Church says so, I don't know what to say.

Douay

RevJP · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject:

So then... All dogs go to heaven?

Sorry, but I'm not big on the Pope's explanation of things biblical.

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

so how do you define the soul .
does this help in any way:
luke 1v15 for he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink,and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,even from his mothers womb.

RevJP · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:13 pm Post subject:

I'm intrigued.

I looked closely at Luke 1:15 (actually the entire passage) and am still working on the translations I have seen.

Out of 16 translations I have access to, verse 15 is translated 3 ways:

the verse:
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

The phrase 'even from his mother's womb.' is translated in 8 versions as
"from his mother's womb"

In 3 versions is indicates while in the womb and 5 versions clearly state upon birth or upon leaving the womb.

Interesting delima. What is even more interesting is the indication that the verse is speaking about John being filled with the holy Spirit, and not referring to a soul, or his spirit.

In Greek: "...pletho hagios pneuma eti ek autos meter koilia" is translated as: "he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

What does this tell us?

RevJP · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:15 pm Post subject:

I honestly am trying to be exegetic in my questions interpretations. I am trying to approach this issue from the bible toward a conclusion rather than from a conclusion to find support from the bible. If some are offended or frustrated by this, I apoligize.

Douay · Tadpole Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 17

Douay · Tadpole Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 17

I found this on an atheist website, the number one reason to be an atheist:

1. Religion is harmful because it claims knowledge of an absolute truth about what it is to be human. By definition such a claim is dangerous. It leads to immoral decision-making and excludes new insights into what it is to be human.

Douay

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

can you really kill the soul.
when the human body-human life dies doesn't the soul carry on living.
so you can't define murder as killing the soul.
it's the body-this life-human life without the soul that is killed, making it murder,the soul lives on.
the bodies purpose is to be the temple for the soul,it's killing the temple that's murder.
even if we don't posses a soul until a certain age,isn't it the killing of the body-human life that defines murder.
for you could say chidren to a certain age are innocent,maybe they don't posses a soul or it's not fully developed,so would killing them not be murder.
just some thoughts.
God bless.
paul.

Nobby · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:18 pm Post subject:

Douay, That was good! Laughing

Nobby

RevJP · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:54 pm Post subject:

Perhaps I have misposke myself somewhere or perhaps I have been misunderstood.

Paul, I did not say you could kill the soul. I said that murder, as in the definition I have offered, is the killing the body which in turn releases the soul to its eternal condition. If the one being killed is born-again then the dispositon of the soul is to its eternal reward. If the one being killed is unsaved then the soul is released to its eternal existence seperated from God (eternal damnation).

If I gave the impression that I meant the soul could be killed I apologize. I mean to say that the true wrong in committing murder is the unexpected dispositon of one's soul.

Douay, I do not claim to know more about scripture than anyone. But as the Pope is clearly not a born-again Christian, I question his judgement, on things of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 says:

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

do you have to have a soul to be filled with the Holy Ghost?
what of unclean spirits,do you have to have a soul to be possesed by these?for Jesus cast them out into a herd of swine.
rev, if you define human as having a soul,what of a new born baby or young child,do they have a soul?
what is a soul,is it your soul you give to Christ?
can a new born baby or young child recieve Christ?
how old was adam after being created,do we know this at all?
what of John in his mothers womb.do you have to be human and be alive to be filled with the Holy Ghost?
God bless
paul.

RevJP · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:32 pm Post subject:

exactly!

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

my point being we can't define the soul.
so how can you say that human life is having a soul when we know not if we have one,when we might have one,if an animal has one.
so if we kill someone can we be excused of murder because we don't know if they had a soul or not.
maybe we always have a soul from the mothers womb but we are not developed enough to use it properly until we reach a certain age.for John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb but wasn't able to do his full works until he was of a certain age.
God bless.
paul.

Douay · Tadpole Joined: 08 Oct 2003 Posts: 17

Quote REVJP: As a spiritual man I 'try all things, that is, I examine, investigate, inquire into, question, and discern all things'. If this is wrong then the Apostle Paul needs to rewrite his message to the Corinthians.

Which passages are you referiing to?

Douay

RevJP · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:32 am Post subject:

1 Corinthian 2:15

I had quoted it in my post just prior to the last.