would a clone have a soul?

RevJP · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:29 am Post subject: would a clone have a soul?

would a clone have a soul?

We may be able to make phyical life, but is that all there is? Would a soulless clone be human then?

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

what is a soul.

RevJP · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:43 pm Post subject:

From John on another site:

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

a friend told me,the soul was created before the body.
so i'm going with that. see what you think.
our parents only recreate our bodies.but it's God who has already created our souls.for it's only God who can create souls,man can only recreate that of flesh.it's only humans who have been chosen by God to posses a soul.the soul being of God is perfect,it's the body that corrupts it with it's needs and desires.
that of our parents d.n.a.,genes etc. we inherit from them,but the soul is straight from God .as for clones,i would think God does give them a soul, to be alive,the soul being the one thing man will never beable to recreate, only corrupt.
God is the Creator,satan is the corruptor.the soul is the only thing of this world that will live on,either in heaven or in hell whichever we choose.
satan has corrupted everything everything of this world,with tempting us to disobey God.our souls are tainted in this life and need to be purified and the only way to do this is by the blood of the lamb-our Lord Jesus Christ.
is the soul capable of sin without the body?i've got some more on this if you want to go into it.let me know what you think of the first bit first,as i get distracted with long posts.
God bless.
paul

RevJP · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:46 am Post subject:

I agree with your premise, God created the soul, as to its perfection - I have my doubts. It is apparent through scripture that the soul (if we then asume we have souls) can be corrupted, as the state of sin of mankind is a corruption of the soul, not an aspect of the body.

If the soul was perfect, then we would have no need for salvation. Regardless of the state of our physical being, our soul would remain untainted.

Thoughts?

Now then, clones and souls... still wondering. If we can clone a person, and that clone is then imbued with a soul, do we not then have the ability to create humanity and in essence replace God?

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

i would say the spirit and soul are the same thing.the soul is some heavenly,spiritual creation of God for us,it's maybe what helps us feel His presence,it's maybe His way of communicating with us.or maybe it's a small part of Him given to us.
won't our souls have to be perfect to enter heaven.you could say,everything of this world,has been corrupted by satan through us as humans,given in to his temptations with the lusts of our bodies and minds.could you say it's only our souls that can stop us being completely corrupted by the cares of this life.
do our souls get smothered with the cares of the world,are we unable to hear the word of God through our own cares of this life.do we give in to sin through the lusts of our bodies and minds for the things of this life that satan has to offer us.isn't it only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we are able to clear our lives of these sins, so our souls may shine through and so we are able to hear the word of God above the cares of this life.
matthew 16v26.for what is a man profited,if he shall gain the whole world,and lose his own soul?or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
i think we're going to have to give up all for God,every care of this life,and i think the only way to do this is to follow our souls,not the lusts of our bodies or minds.
maybe our souls are perfect,and we need salvation to cleanse the sins of the flesh(body and mind.)so that the mist has been cleared for us to see what's really important,that of the soul being our link to God or maybe a part of God.maybe our souls don't become tainted,just lost in the mist of our sins.
i think if would only be God who would breath life into a clone by giving it a soul,otherwise it maybe pure evil.
you know as well as i that man can never replace God.
man may create a lot of things with the tools of God,but they'll never have the power of God and their creations will never be as perfect as Gods.
just look at all the pollution and side effects mans creations cause.
as i said man can never create a soul,this is definetly of God in some way,and man will never hold that power in their hands, never mind how much they try.
could it be that the only time satan will ever beable to get his hands on our souls is if we end up in hell with him.
could it be he only has power of this world, to tempt us into forgeting about the power and importance of our souls.
don't really know if i'm right,i'm just doing a bit of soul searching.
anyway let me know what you think.and it's your fault about this soul thing rev,you've got me thinking hard about this.
God bless.
paul.

Glorfindel · Tadpole Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 28 Location: UK

I don't know too much about cloning, but I guess that anything created by humans would be akin to a robot . So I say no! A clone can't have a soul

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

but if it's a human life,being born of the womb, hasn't it got the right of salvation, the same as the rest of us.should we be judged on our parents mistakes.don't get me wrong i'm completely against this,but just trying to explore all possibilities.
God bless.
paul.

Glorfindel · Tadpole Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 28 Location: UK

I cannot see that we as humans can build being with spiritual awareness.

Nobby · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:58 am Post subject: Cloning

I don't know much about cloning, but as far as I know it still requires a human sperm & egg dosen't it? And that is still God's handy work.
Yes, I am also 100% against cloning of a human being.
I not sure that God will allow this to happen? But will he/she have a soul? Who knows? I would think that he/she would,
..oooorrr!..... maybe he will be the anti-christ Question

Not!
Peace,
Nobby

Ron · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 7

paul · Little Goldfish Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 51

i haven't really got a clue what the soul is i can only asume.
i wasn't actually implying that there are souls floating about.
what i'm trying to imply is that the body is of man as in reproduction ,or cloning as the topic goes.
it's only the body that is created in this world but the soul or the spirit ,which i think could be the same thing ,is created purely of God.
so as the body can be imperfect ,created in a world of sin.
the soul is perfect being of God.
our soul then becomes covered with sin when we live a sinful life ,we need the sins washed away.
we can can then live by our soul instead of our body.
is not the soul and the spirit the same thing then?
i know we are to live in the spirit as in be concerned with serving God and not our sinful minds.
although the bible tells us to love the Lord with all our hearts ,souls and minds.
will our hearts and minds go to heaven?
isn't the heart only an organ and the mind maybe our brain?
so then what is the soul if it's not our spirit?
do all have souls and only those of Christ have a spirit or being filled with the spirit and live by it.
or are there two types of spirit and the one maybe just another word for the soul?
i'm not sure sure ,what do you think?
God bless.
paul

Van · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:28 am Post subject: Parts is Parts

Parts is Parts
If you break Christians down into their component parts, do you end up with two pieces or three? You are of course a fleshly being, born of this earth and barring the Second Coming, your body will return to this earth. But what about your soul? And your spirit? And the Holy Spirit that dwells within you? Are there three separate pieces in the puzzle of self? Does the flesh have a mind of its own, with fleshly desires that war with your soul or your spirit or the part of the Holy Spirit that dwells within you. Who are you anyway?

Lets start with the Holy Spirit. A personality separate from the Son (Jesus), and separate from the Father within the Trinity (Acts 13:2). Some part of Him dwells within each Christian because Jesus sent Him to help Christians walk the talk. Since holy means set apart, I like to think of the Holy Spirit as a separate entity that dwells within me. He does not control me but he helps me understand God’s will as revealed in the Word of God. When I study the Word or ponder a future action I often pray, asking the Holy Spirit to guide me. Not that I never get it wrong, because I do. But I think I get it right (or closer to right) more often than I would if the Holy Spirit did not help. In fact, I am so sure of the help I receive that I count it as evidence that I am saved. (Roman 8:16)

Your spirit is the non-physical part of your being that goes to be with Jesus immediately after you die or goes to Hades to await judgment. Thus it can separate from the flesh (Luke 8:52-55). It is the part of you that is converted at conversion. It is the new creature. More than anything else, it is you! It is more than your mind because your mind cannot function without the brain. Neither an aborted baby nor an Alzheimer’s victim in the final stages has much of a mind, but both have a Spirit as valuable as yours or mine.

The term Soul is used for several different aspects of human existence. Sometimes it is used where Spirit would be a better translation, sometimes it is used where life or life force would make as much sense, but most of the time it refers to our core attitude, mood or frame of mind, our conscious awareness.

The flesh, which the NIV poorly translates in many verses as “old nature”, usually refers to our body and how its built in corrupted instincts for survival influence us. The battle that Christians wage each day is to control or limit these influences and to expand the influence of the Holy Spirit by choosing to follow Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

To confuse the situation even more, the Bible uses figurative descriptions like heart or bowels when referring to strong emotions, feeling or attitudes.

Lets see if we can unravel the text and come up with a clear understanding.

In the NIV version of the Old Testament the Hebrew word Nepes is most often translated “life” (129 times) or “soul” (105 times). Frequently it is used with another Hebrew word (leb or lehab) in the figure of speech “with all your heart and with all your soul.” Less figuratively, this term could be rendered “with all your intellect and with all your desire.” The concept being communicated is a complete and total commitment.

Nepes is also used with bitter, bitterness, anguish and grief to illustrate deep inner pain. Alternately, Nepes is used to illustrate deep inner joy. For example, “Praise the Lord, Oh my soul.” Again, a less figurative translation would be “core attitude.” Often, the idea is that the Lord can lift our core attitude, changing our mood from downcast to joyful peace. On the other hand, Sin can turn our core attitude toward grief, turmoil and bitterness. For example, “My soul is weary with sorrow.”

The Bible teaches that God formed us in the womb (Isaiah 44:2) and that God formed our spirit within us (Zechariah 12:1). So our eternal essence has a beginning with the beginning of our individual life, for without the spirit, the body dies.

Another frequent usage of the Hebrew word Nepes concerns the well being of the individual. These verses should perhaps be translated “spirit” because they have eternal implications. For example “…and his lips are a snare to his soul” or “He who gets wisdom loves his own soul.”

If these three translation choices for the word Nepes were made the beauty of the Old Testament text might be diminished. But the confusing double usage of the word soul, referring both to our temporal frame of mind and our eternal essence would be eliminated.

The NIV Old Testament translates two other words as soul and both should be changed.
In one verse “harmless soul” should be rendered as the NAS does “innocent without cause” because the idea is that bad people are waylaying someone who has done no wrong. The other verse uses a figure of speech “heart and soul” and would be better translated “wholeheartedly.” The idea being communicated is that the armor bearer will stay with Jonathan even if it costs him his life.

Now lets turn to the New Testament. The Greek word Psyche is translated most often as life or soul in a similar fashion to the Hebrew word Nepes. And when it is translated soul, it is used for a range of meanings from our eternal essence to our mood. Most often when translated as soul, the usage refers to our core attitude and values. For example, in Hebrews 4:12, the dynamic Word of God penetrates our core attitude and enlivens our spirit. Again, in a similar fashion to Nepes, Psyche is also used in the figure of speech, “with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” Less figuratively, the phrase could be rendered, “with all your intellect and with all your desire and with all your understanding.”

Complicating matters the Greek word Pneuma is used for a spectrum of meanings from Holy Spirit, to our eternal human spirit, to being in the spirit (i.e. behaving like someone or something else such as a “gentle spirit”) making confusion difficult to avoid. However, if we again try to change the translation of Psyche to “core attitude” when our eternal essence is not in view and to spirit when it is, we can reduce the ambiguity.

I am not advocating actually penciling out soul from our Bibles, but what I am suggesting is that we use Occam’s razor to interpret soul, not as a third entity, but simply as fuzzy way of expressing either our eternal spirit individuality or our temporal frame of mind while in the flesh.

Lets look at one verse with our new perspective and see if it makes more sense. The NIV translation of 1 Thess. 5:23 says, “May God Himself, the God of Peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Since I believe we should always look at the NAS translation of the Bible for study purposes (along with the NIV and KJV), the NAS says, “Now may the God of Peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” At the Lord’s second coming we will be made complete, with our spirit no longer struggling with the corrupted influences of our flesh, in the theater of our mind! Thank God Almighty, peace at last, peace at last. Whether we are asleep in Christ, incomplete because our mortal body has returned to dust, or a new creature alive within our mortal body and thus not completely sanctified because the flesh is impure, all that will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Now, at the second coming, with our spirits joined with our glorified resurrected bodies, we will be complete, sanctified and with a core attitude of peace. I think that is the soul of the matter.

Van · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:54 am Post subject:

To return to the topic of cloning, my understanding is that they start with an egg. It contains only the female DNA. They manipulate the egg such that they remove as necessary the existing DNA and insert the DNA of another person (or animal in the case of Dolly the sheep). So now the egg has be fertalized, not by combining the partial DNA's contained in the sperm and the egg, but by replacing the female part with a complete DNA from another individual.

The Bible does not directly address cloning, so I do not know if the clone would be like a dog or other life form without an existence beyond the grave, or if God would form the eternal essence of the human spirit within the cloned embryo. To assert either position is without any Biblical support that I am aware of. The truth is we do not know the answer to that question.

metothezero · Tadpole Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

Does cloning not occur naturally? Van your brief punctuated explanation of what cloning is, is quite correct. Why would you assume that because someone shares common DNA, that the second to have this DNA would not be Considerably human?

Of course, as Van has said, I have not seen any Biblical evidence for or against Cloning...