Once Saved Always Saved!

Van · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:29 am Post subject:

The premise of the above post is that the OT saints were in Christ during there lives and during the period between their death and Christs resurrection. However, an alternate view is that they were under the Law and not in Christ, and therefore there names were not written in the Book of Life during their lifetime, but only added after the resurrection of Christ.

What was asserted was that the "book" mentioned in Exodus 32:33 governing OT saints was being treated under the same rules as the "book" in Revelation 22:18-19. But the "book of Revelation 22:18-19 is the Book of Revelation. So they are not the same book or so it seems to me. But wait, there is more. Revelation 22:18-19 does not say a person's name will be removed from the Book of Life, it says a persons part in the tree of life will be taken away. And what "part" might that be? The tree has twelve fruit or kinds of fruit, yeilding fruit every month, and thus a continuous supply of fruit comes from the tree of life, and the tree of life also has leaves which are good for healing, which means a steady supply of the stuff necessary so that their will be no more tears, no more pain, no more suffering. Precious Jesus.

In summary, Revelation 22:18-19 teaches that if you do not accept the revelation of Jesus Christ fully, if you add to it and therefore change it, or if you take something away and thus change it, if you do not readily accept the Word of God and the Gospel of Christ, you will not gain your inheritance because you do not believe in the name, the full authority, the perfection of Jesus Christ. "Your part" being your opportunity for salvation, not your salvation. All of mankind has a "part" an opportunity for salvation, this is the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can accept it or reject it. Amen.

Revelations 13:8 says, “And all who dwell on the earth will worship him (the Antichrist) whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” Working backward, it is the Lamb who has been slain. Everyone alive at the end time of John’s prophesy, everyone corporately that was left out of the book of life, because they were not part of the foreknown group of believers in Christ, will worship the Antichrist. This passage suggests that those, whose names were written in the book of life, were written there before the foundation of the world. But this is an unnecessary inference. What the scripture says is that those whose names were not written (therefore a corporate and non-specific designation) and who are alive at the time will worship the Antichrist. The Lamb’s Book of Life was created when God purposed and planned for the salvation of all those “in Christ”, which was before the foundation of the world. All those not included in the corporate designation “in Christ” did not have their names written from the foundation of the world, and never would. To take this scripture further and teach an unsupported inference is unnecessary, and completely wrong.

Revelation 17:8 uses the same designation, those whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and indicates their names were not there at the beginning and never added later. Similarly, the individual names of believers were not there before the foundation of the world either, but were added later when God chose them based in part on their faith. This is consistent with Daniel 12:1 which says concerning end time distress, “…everyone who is found written in the book will be saved.” Note that this verse indicates the names of the saints are in the book during end times but does not indicate when they were added. Philippians 4:3 reinforces this observation that the names are written during the lives of the believers, rather than before.

Revelation 3:5 presents a similar opportunity to make an unsound inference, because it says, “He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I (Jesus) will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess His name before my Father, and before His angels.” This verse does not say when “He who overcomes” name is written in the book of life. This passage does not support, except by inference, that believer’s names are entered into the Book of Life before they place their faith in Christ. Those that believe we can fall from grace, say that Jesus can erase our names until we physically die. But that too is an unwarranted inference from this passage; Jesus is saying He will not erase the names of those who overcome. This does not indicate that Jesus would erase a name once entered into the book of life; it is a promise to those who overcome that He will not! Once God chooses a believer, based on accepting his or her faith, and baptizes them into the body of Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge that they shall receive an inheritance and therefore are predestined that they shall overcome!

John the Baptist · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:09 am Post subject:

Hi,
I am posting this below from another thread. (and perhaps site) Please be advised that there is NOTHING personal that is meant for mankind in it. We [ALL] grow at different speeds. Yet, the message 'itself' of OSAS as I see it, ranks right there at the top with all the other promises of life. It has & is doing more than many other 'doctrines' that is offered as truth to help fill hell. See 2 Peter 2:*19-22.
____

John here:
The post is mans logic at best! First off the 'post' closes with mind reading judgement! (who believes that this work is fun?? It is done so as not to be in the sin of omission) I have removed the verses above & will respond to the references of mans logic only that are below.

Man says that God 'promises them liberty' (OSAS is such!) But notice what 'inspiration' through Peter DOCUMENTS:

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: [for whom a man is OVERCOME, of the same IS HE BROUGHT IN BONDAGE.] (see James 1:15--false doctrine included 1 John 2:4)
For if AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTION'S OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
(converted & Born Again ones)
they are [AGAIN] entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the LATTER end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it [HAD BEEN] better for THEM NOT TO [HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. (see Matt. 28:20 for holy commandment!)
But it [IS] happened unto them according to the TRUE PROVERB, (find it in the Word!) the dog IS TURNED to his own VOMIT [AGAIN]; and the sow[THAT WAS WASHED] to her wallowing in the mire."
**********

The above is from Luke 13:24-28, a section that (surprise, surprise) has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "eternal security." These, as in the previous post, refer to those unregenerate who dare to call Him Lord but have never truly known Him. Since they don't know Him, His response is "..., I tell you, I know you not when ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." How do we know this section is not referring to believers? Because those sealed in Christ are exactly that, sealed in Christ. God seals believers and sealing belongs only to believers (2 Cor. 1:22). The believer is sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).

The Bible tells us that believers are predestined to be adopted as sons (Eph. 1:5). Waterhouse writes, "Those who deny the eternal security of the believer must disagree that a believer is predestined to glory. They must deny the believer is predestined to obtain a full 'adoption as sons.' Since God has made the decree that those justified are as good as glorified and has decreed those 'in Christ' will obtain adoption as sons, ... those who deny security unknowingly deny that God can or will abide by His own promises. If a believer does not obtain glory or full 'sonship,' then either God contradicted Himself, or He is not able to keep His self-imposed obligation. Either God was mistaken in these teachings about predestination to glory, or He does not have the powers or ability to guarantee a full adoption as sons" (Blessed Assurance, p.7).

*****
John again:
There is NO 'atom' of thought from this end that God does not KNOW who will be Saved or Lost. (NONE! OK? See Rom. 4:17's last part) What GOD does teach the Born Again ones is that it is US that do not know what God KNOWS! We have a forbidden tree in the midst of the Born Again life! (if one has got far)

The use of eternal security is true in the GodHeads for/knowledge. But that is not our case. The Bible is FULL of Everlasting Gospel CONDITIONS. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. Promises without giving the conditions to the promise is flawed 1/2 'g'ospel which is just NO GOSPEL!

You give the sealing of the Holy Spirit with out telling any that God States that one is given the 'EARNEST' of the Holy Spirit. Humanity know where the 'earnest money' of home buying came from. Where there is EARNEST money there is also a CLOSING TIME! Acts 3:19 tells us when this TIME COMES. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins [may be blotted out], (THESE ARE NOW SAVED? NOT YET! THERE IS MORE YET STATED!) [*WHEN THE TIME OF REFRESHING SHALL COME.]"

Now: There are two class only with the Wheat & the Tares. (they grow together for a time) Yet, NEVER ARE WE TOLD THAT OPEN SINNERS ARE EITHER ONE OF THESE TWO CLASS. This is the class that we are considering! All [CONVERTED ones in OPEN SIN] when known are IN THIS 3rd. CLASS! Rev. 18:4 ARE CONVERTED with a DECISION to make!

Heb. 6:1-6 are ALL MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST! The Word of God would be violating the TRUTH of 2 Cor. 4:2 if the 'TRUTH' is not Truth. They would be handling the Word of God both "in CRAFTINESS'' or "Dishonestly" if they are 'just barking'---WHICH THEY ARE NOT! Someone else is. (see Gen. 4:7 for whose doctrine OSAS is.)
****

The argument against the doctrine of "eternal security" has gone from poor to downright pathetic on this thread. Opponents should present clear, concise arguments against the "once saved, always saved" position. They should not just throw out verses left and right with no consideration of the context or study of the original languages.[/quote]

***
Me again: Now about your 'posted' remarks above?
Inspiration by Paul tells of there being OPEN SIN THAT WILL "CRUCIFY CHRIST AFRESH TO THEMSELVES. AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME."
And that these ones were: "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" and "HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT" (Jesus Christ) and "WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST" and HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE *POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME." Powers.. see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:8!

Now for my thing on this OSAS doctrine? It is one of many false doctrines that does more perhaps than any other doctrine to fill hell! Not only this one doctrine, but another that is about as bad, it is the one of a lost sinner burning in a hell fire that never destroys the person! On & on they burn by a OSAS 'false believing FOLD'. See Obad. 16 & Eze.. 18:4 & Eze.. 18:20.

AND BOTTOM LINE: Christ states it VERY PLAINLY that He has His sheep in the wrong FOLD! [SAVED AT PRESENT!] Again Rev. 18:4! Not OSAS!

---John
_________________

Van · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:27 pm Post subject:

Once saved, always saved is a sound Biblical doctrine. The key is that when we place our faith in Christ, we have tasted the good word of God and partaken. But if our faith is not accepted by God, we are not baptized into the body of Christ, we are not indwelt, we are not saved. Jesus can say to us, I NEVER knew you. People who fall away are in this catigory, they go out from us because they are not of us. See 1 John 2:19.

John the Baptist

When Rev. 14:6 states EVERLASTING GOSPEL, it means just that, both forwards & backwards into ETERNITY!
When Heb. 13:20 states EVERLASTING COVENANT, it means just that, both forwards & backwards into ETERNITY!

The Born Again Required 'life' of John 3:1-10 is not a mere profession of Christ, but requires both the profession of Everlasting Gospel & His 'EPISTLE', or CHARACTER, which IS HIS EVERLASTING COVENANT! (see 1 Cor. 3:3 & James 2:26) Israel of old had the Everlasting Covenant without Christ! Today, we hear that one is to have Christ without HIS EVERLASTING COVENANT. That is not Everlasting Gospel or Everlasting Covenant!

Notice 2 Cor. 3:3 tells us of the LETTER OF CHRIST, which 'EPISTLE OF CHRIST' means. Then we see that the New Covenant 'enlargement' (see Isa. 42:21) is to be in ones [mind]! Christ always required that His Character 'Epistle' letter or testimony to be seen & read inside ones heart & mind! (see Heb. 11:13) Notice the above verse?
"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the [epistle of Christ] ... written not with ink, (inspired writters) but with the Spirit of the living God; (notice the rebirth of John 3!) not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart" (This is the requirement of God)

And no man will be in the kingdom of God without the born again mind transplant! Again, John 3:3. Belief (saving Faith) in Christ alone will finds one eternally gone! Obad. 16. One must have both the Profession of Christ & the Working Obeying Covenant of His personage to enter Evverlasting life! And that is Everlasting Gospel! Not 1/2 of a 'new false gospel that we see & hear of today!! (see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 for the supplied provisions for this recreated work)
Christ gave an Eternal Truth in John 15:5's last part of the verse! It goes way beyond earth's few number! It takes in all of creation!
The heavenly angels, the other world's (plural) of the book of Heb., along with.. "ETERNITY"!
Here is the Masters Words: "WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"!!

That tells us what? That the requirement of the New Birth is First Choice. It can only be by done by Christ' Covenant replacing our heart & mind! We become His letter & His testimony! (Gospel & Covenant character) And that this is nothing new, that this is Eternal Gospel Joined with the Covenant Character of the Eternal Gospel of Christ, ETERNALLY! See Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15.

One writter asks on the thread, about the battle? (Christ & 's'atan of Eph. 4:12)
The battle is 'ever' over the very character of the GodHead! The Law of the Universe!
Isa. 8:16 speaks of it this way, "Bind up the testimony, SEAL THE LAW AMONG MY DISCIPLES."
The 'testimony part' is all of Scripture that man was inspired to write. (see 2 Tim. 3:16) These are put in their own wording to describe inspirational Truth. Yet, ones needs the whole of Scripture to see truth. (Matt. 4:4 - 1 Cor. 14:32)
And with the Covenant Law of God this is not the case! This Epistle of Christ must be the Christians testimony and to be sealed in their minds!
Isa. 8:20 goes on to say that.. all of the Universe can tell who it is that is wrestling on the 'd'evils side of the battle, or that are not Born Again, or that have made shipwreck even AFTER they had received the love of the Truth. Notice!

"To the Law (CHARACTER OF THE GODHEAD!) [and] to the Testimony: If they speak not according to this Word, IT IS BECAUSE THEIR IS NOT LIGHT IN THEM". First comes the Moral Law of the GodHead that They put into the TABLES OF STONE & THEN INTO THE TABLES OF THE FLESHY MIND OF HIS DISCIPLES BY THE NEW BIRTH. Then, NEXT COMES ALL OF THE TESTIMONY OF THE 66 BKS. OF THE WRITTEN WORD. If one goes contrary to any portion of the Covenant FIRST, or the Bible studied as a Whole? Then they have no LIGHT! (see James 2:8-12 for even breaking one commandment of the Covenant requirement)

Seal the LAW AMONG MY DISCIPLES!? When one thinks of a SEAL, we think of authority. The bible writers use different words throughout its content that are needed to understand what the 'seal' in the Law of God is all about. The mark of the beast will be the exact opposite of God's TRUE SEALING!

If one would do as suggested before, and do a sincere study on 'seal' 'mark' 'sign' 'signet' in the Masters Word they would come to some very interesting Truths. They might even readily see that there will be a very large 'broadway' group that will receive the mark in there hands, just because they have neither desire, or.. 'just' could care less about the mark of the beast?

Part one?
--John

John the Baptist · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:35 pm Post subject:

Hi, I posted this up on another forum. But thought that you might see some interest in it? --John

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vicjr wrote:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John, I have two questions...

1-what do you consider 'the remnant' in this verse?

and

2-what 'commandments of God' is this verse referring to? It doesn't say God's Ten Commandments. Is it possible that He has more commandments than just 'The Ten'. The NT speaks several times of God's commandments and they do not refer to the 10.

**********
Hi Vic,
You know what I think, huh?

First: The REMNANT. Of these ones will come the 144000 that have left Laodicea. Same as Israel of old previous history. Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. The 'd'evil (had) has the Virgin denomination. (again!) Notice Amos 5:2? "THE VIRGIN OF ISRAEL HAS FALLEN; SHE SHALL NO MORE RISE:.." He also had Israel of old! (Matt. 25) Still he hated her! As 70 AD teaches. (or Eze. 9) It was the Remnant [ONLY] that followed Christ [OUT]. (compare Rev. 18:4) It is the WHY, that is important? Rom. 8:1 "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

Vic, Christ leaves NO doubt to who is JUDGED First! 1 Peter 4:17. And in Isa. 5 we see (some) that made the RIGHT Judgement! Check verse 3!!
"... JUDGE, I PRAY YOU, [BETWIXT *ME AND MY *VINEYARD]." And who His Vineyard is, is seen in verse 7! (Worldwide)

But the Everlasting Gospel is what counts! Rev. 14:6. Then if there is as the Word of the Master states, an EVERLASTING GOSPEL? (ETERNITY HAS NO START OR FINISH) Then, without the GodHeads 'COVENANT COMMANDMENTS' there could have been no sin.

The Word states that He is the same [yesterday], today and [forever] and that He changeth not! Again, how shallow does the Word yesterday mean for us'ins today?? Notice 1 John 3:4, ..
"WHOSOEVER COMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH [ALSO THE LAW:] FOR [SIN *IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.]"

Remember where 'sin' (see James 1:15) first started & became MATURE! HEAVEN ITSELF!
And not only that, but the open sinner who sinned the sin against the Holy Ghost (1 Jn. 5:16-17) was one of the covering cherubs over the Ark of God inside the GodHeads Throne room in the Lord's Most Holly place in heaven itself! What would he now hate the most Vic, if not the CHARACTER of the law of God that was beneath him while obedient? And one commandment even more than the rest! (see Dan. 7:25)
So SURELY Vic, if one is 'completely committed, they can see in Psalms 77:13 where the GodHead has their ETERNAL COVENANT!
INSIDE THE ARK OF HEAVEN! Notice Rev. 11:19? but read verse 18 on? The time of the dead to be judged! Then verse 19 tells one that the 'temple' of the GodHead was OPENED [in heaven] and there was SEEN IN HIS TEMPLE THE [ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT].."

Do you remember way back when you asked the question of Rev. 12:17? (about the Commandments of God) Well, it states [BOTH] the Commandments of God & (what Jesus would do! Isa. 42:21) the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST! This IS WHAT THE WORD JESUS CHRIST CAME TO DO! MAGNIFY THE LAW OF GOD AND MAKE IT HONORABLE. And in Isa. 8:20 we see that this LAW & TESTIMONY separates the darkness from the LIGHT! Right along with James 2:10-12 & 1 John 2:4 + Eccl. 12:13-14.

And we KNOW that THEIR COVENANT also had to be EVERLASTING or there would never be any DEFINITION of sin! See Heb. 13:20. (the LETTER or EPISTLE of the 10 Commandments are the very essence of the character of the GodHead personified! (see 2 Cor. 3:3) Also study Christ's MAGNIFIED Word of the ten commandments by Himself on Earth. Yet, ALL of the N.T. is the WORD! And magnifies THEIR CHARACTER!

Hope this helps? Remember that Christ was to [MAGNIFY the Law & MAKE IT HONORABLE]. And today?? We even see some on [this forum] claim that Christ was a Sabbath Breaker! What they have become, is, as a person who are believing [the accusers of Christ] as teaching that He was a Sabbath Breaker!

One more for knowing what law it is speaking about when referring to the law of the ten commandments, is the study of Rom. 13's second side of the TWO tables of stone, AND also James 2:8-12's pointing the ones who are sincere, right directly to two of the ten!
Notice also that He is 'inspired' to pen 'THE *ROYAL LAW'! then in verse 10-12 he even tell us that this 10 commandment Royal law will be our [standard] of Judgement. We also see that IF any one of these 10 are broken, this one sin result in [BREAKING THEM ALL]!! And he leaves NO DOUBT as to what LAW HE IS INSPIRED TO [IDENTIFY]! Killing & Adultery are contained in the Everlasting Covenant! And the 'heavenly ADULTERY was SPIRITUAL'. (see Rev. 17:1-5 as is the 'fermented' stuff! )

---John