Big Bang

Van · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:09 am Post subject: Big Bang

Time exists. To deny that time exists is to deny objective reality.
Just because there is no one to appreciate time, to quantify it, or to react to it, does not affect its existence whatsoever. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

When a tree falls in a forest, vibrations are created in the air, sound waves. Just because no ear processes those waves and apreciates the sound via internal mental processes, does not mean the sound waves did not exist. They are part of objective reality.

There is nothing wrong with saying I do not believe God exists. But you cross the line when you say God does not exist. There is nothing wrong with saying I do not know if God exists. But you cross the line when you say you know God does not exist.

Is an atheist one who lacks belief in a deity? Nope. An atheist is one who denies the existence of God. Which of course is based on faith.

shoshin · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:08 am Post subject:

So now you get to define everything?
Yes... yes you do. And so do I... welcome to a discussion.
You are entitled to your opinion.
I believe, however, that you have misunderstood what I said. This is my fault, as I misworded myself in my first post. I should have said time is not real, not that it does not exist. I thought my further explanations would clear up that word confusion. I apologize.
I said time exists without us...
"I said that time exists like math exists - it still does what we define it to do." That is ME saying that.. in the post you are replying to. Our perception of time is one of many possibilities... we know very little about time, no matter what we claim...
I am not denying times essence... I am denying times reality...
We cannot know times reality...
I said I wish to cease discussion, not beause I believe the discussion of time it "out of your reach" or anything as obnoxious as that. I agreed to stop the discussion because I remembered that our viewpoints on the creation point of things like time and the universe differ greatly... to which there will be no concurrent outcome. I was once told my a philosophy teacher to ask a question to everyone you debate with - 'Is there anything said, at any point in time in this discussion, that could ever change your mind?'
My answer to that is yes, I am willing to change my view, given the right circumstances. I have no attachment to my beliefs. (Before you say anything... I DO NOT believe this makes me superior... this is simply a difference between science and religion... You most likely view this as a weakness.. I do not)
I imagine your answer to that question is no, since changing your opinion would equate with a lack of faith.
If you believe you god created time and space... (I'll just say this, since I notice the trend that you seem to think I am attacking you - I find no fault in you believing in God... I just happen not to believe in him) then you are of course going to disagree with any notion that man "invented" time... I do not believe that man is so powerful on his own that he "whipped up" time in some lab or brain tank.
I am sorry for forgetting your viewpoint. However, you have done the same.
---Sidenote---
**I do not appreciate RevJP's constant echo of Van's arguements, with the added insult of calling me a coward. I respect Van's solid arguements, I would never presume to call him stupid after talking to him, simply because he has faith. I would however, ask RevJP to back himself up with something as strong as calling me a coward. Van simply attacks/discusses my discussion points - this is what a debate is. To attack the person in the debate... is a weak tactic.**
(On that note, I would like to thank you Van... you have proved to be an interesting person to talk with... )
----End Sidenote----
What we DID invent, is how we view time. The theory of how it moves foward. The theory when we speed up, it slows down.
The theories pertaining to time, mass, speed, etc... are all interrelated.... This is the realm of science. This is what time means to me.
If you look at your watch, I imagine you thank god for giving you time with which to measure... am I correct?
When I look at the time, I am thankful for the ability to use it for organization, for for use in logical equations, and for something to ponder...

Once again, I am not an athiest. I am an agnostic. The two are very different. I will agree that athiest deny or lack belief in god, or any deity. Agnostics, however, do not. Agnostics believe in the possibility of a deity, or some supreme cosmic conciousness... we do, however, require some form of evidence.
I see beauty all around me... I love the colours and shapes of nature, the sounds of classical music... I see beauty in science and math... I see the face of a beautiful woman, or a family member.. and I am thankful - to whom am I thankful, I cannot be sure. But I believe that it is more likely that some form or deity is responsible for this. The problem is - there are many different beings who claim responsibility, all of whom have no proof. I do not believe that lack of proof equals non-existence... I believe that I need proof in order to choose from these numerous options. As far as I know... the real choice may not be an option yet...
And once again, not all athiests are so sure... Maybe the ones you know are... I know many athiests who border on being agnostic... they simply lack the belief that a divine entity in needed for the beauty around us... They are not so sure as to deny...
Not all athiests make the same arguements... I'll agree that the obnoxious ones who deny the intelligence of anyone who has faith... they usually make the same arguements...
But not all athiests are the same... I used to be one...
If I was an athiest, and was so 100% sure that there was NO chance for a deity to exist... would I now be agnostic?

(I hope this cleared up the confusion that
a) I am NOT attacking you, nor do I assume you are stupid for having faith
b) My stance on time, for the record - Its exists, but it is not real. ie. All we know of time is our viewpoint (that is moves forward, yadda yadda ya....) which we created
c) RevJP, if you want to contribute to the conversation... please expand stuff like your comment "Man invented clocks, sundials, calendars, etc. to measure time according to his definition".. and leave out the name calling... It doesnt make this whole debate very respectable...

Van · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:04 pm Post subject:

I did not see anything to respond to - so lets leave it as you did

Time exists (and therefore was not created by man) but is not real (with real meaning something man actually understands.)

As I said at the outset, time and space, matter and energy came into existence at the Big Bang, from an unknown source by an unknown cause. See Genesis 1:1.

John the Baptist · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Big Bang

admin · Beloved Admin Joined: 28 Sep 2000 Posts: 88

John the Baptist · Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:22 pm Post subject:

Just wondering, do monkey's have knee caps or just us'ins? Come to think of it, both my wife & I both have these things! What do you 'spect' they evolved there for? Why do you think that is? Wink

---John

RevJP · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:50 am Post subject:

To keep our knees from folding backwards.

John the Baptist · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:50 pm Post subject:

RevJP · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:37 am Post subject:

The Barbarian · Not So Newbie Joined: 13 Oct 2003 Posts: 7

Kneecaps are there to give you a bit of leverage when you walk upright. They function exactly like those little jib cranes you see on constructionsite, on top of larger cranes.

http://rmscranes.com/images/apartments.jpg

that little spar on top lifts the cable so that there is better leverage on the load. Kneecaps are membranous bone, formed by calcification of the tendon. Some people have an extra bone in their foot, caused by the same phenomenon.

sparrowsuede · Newbie Alert Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 1

The world around us has provided us with an abundance of evidence that the theory of evolution is not only realistic but to deny its existance entirely would be nieve.Though in the same frame of thought, I beleive that to deny the existence of a creator is downright foolish ( i mean, just look around, how could this all be chance? ) But when you start talking about the facts of god and proof and so on... well there really is none, there is only faith, and the only real evidence is the results and effects of people with faith.Then again, you cant disprove god either. If I said that the center of the sun is actually made of super hot nacho cheese, no one could disprove it , and I would have no proof to support it leaving me with only my faith in my insane claims, and everyone else with only scientific common sense (which is where theories come from) .

luvnlife · Goldfish Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 59

Sparrowsuede said: