Women as pastors/priests

metothezero · Tadpole Joined: 28 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

hmmm....

John the Baptist · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Women as pastors/priests

RevJP · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:00 am Post subject:

I've already posted my thoughts on the 'women as pastors' idea, here is something more from C.A.R.M. (it's a bit long but I posted the whole thing rather than a link for everyone's convenience)

CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY www.carm.org
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Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the social standard and allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?
My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.

First of all, I believe that women are, for the most part, under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. I also believe that there are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Rather, we must change and adapt to what it says.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church. Let's take a look.
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church, not in a social or political context.
When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.
In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.
Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.
Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).
This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.
This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.
In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.
Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.
The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?
First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.
Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

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1. An important note here is that the Holy Spirit is also called the Helper and is no less God than Jesus and the Father.
2. The Promise is God's promise to Abraham to bless all the nations in Him (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8).

shepreach · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:21 am Post subject:

hey rev,
knew you'd get an answer from me didn't you.
1. church is not Christianity. it is man made with man made rules. i admit the first church was following Christ, but now days we follow the rules and traditions of men. there is no church exactly like the first ones.
2. Christ was Christ everywhere, not just in the synagogue. we are to be christians everywhere, too. that negates the argument that women can have authority outside but not inside the church. you can't have it both ways she does or she doesn't.
3. a call to ministry comes from God. the authority to carry out that ministry also comes from God. If God chooses to call a woman, the authority she has was never a man's in the first place.
4. the passage in first timothy must be read in context. Paul is talking about the relationship between a husband and wife just as he does in many other places. i find no mention of church or meeting or synagogue in this passage.

John the Baptist · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:39 am Post subject:

Da Blonde Bombshell · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:50 pm Post subject:

I wouldn't join a church that refused to ordain female clergy. I believe to do so is to institute sexism.

John the Baptist · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:40 am Post subject:

Da Blonde Bombshell · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:31 pm Post subject:

shepreach · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject:

i have a question. is there a verse in matthew that says women can't be pastors? some one asked me about it; said they'd heard it from a tv preacher. please don't give me the OT or paul. i've been there done that. stick to the book of matthew please.
sheila

John the Baptist · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:21 am Post subject:

junco · Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:32 am Post subject:

My wife and I would like to chip our two cents worth in here. We woiuld like to point out that NOT ONE BOOK in the Protestant Canon was written by a female. (We can't speak for the Catholic Apocrypha.)

We BOTH find this prejudicial in the extreme. Furthermore, there were no women evident at the Council of Nicea, nor the Diet of Worms. We believe new revelation is called for.

Understanding how revolutionary this is, we hasten to protest that we would do away with no part of the present Canon. We think it's time AND PAST TIME for more.

Les and Chris

RevJP · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject:

junco · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:09 am Post subject:

Well, we take back what we said. Adding to canon may be sacrilegous, and we haven't taken leave of our senses, we hope.

It's just that there are a great many things in post-modern life. Worldwide communication, for example. Present-day transportation. Oil consumption. Even food consumption. Commercial enterprise. The latest medical progress (for lack of a better word). Even some things that have become institutions, such as the US legal system, where at least theoretically even people at the bottom of the heap get a fair shake. None of these things are directly treated in the Bible.

We guess that this problem has been thought of before, and perhaps our proposed solution too. If so, there must be excellent reasons why it wasn't opted for.

ANSWERING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION there's nothing in our translations of Matthew that denies women the right to preach.

RevJP · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:

junco · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject:

Well, it wasn't our question, so it won't be what either of us (Chris and Les) define as preaching. We know what WE mean by the word, but this isn't our deal. #Turn-l