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kirkguardian
Newbie Alert
Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 7:46 am Post subject: Why Is The Church Silent? |
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Those of us who have been involved in the prolife movement for any length of time know how frustrating it can be to get churches mobilized in any kind of formal and organized way in defense of the preborn.
The process of mobilizing a church begins, in most cases, with the church's pastor. If the pastor is unsupportive, it's unlikely the church will be supportive. I know from much personal experience that there are thousands of pastors who claim to be prolife, yet they are noticeably nervous when I ask them to work with me in organizing a Life Appreciation Sunday, or join us for the Life Chain, or participate in any active way in defense of the preborn.
When pressed on the matter, the conversation inevitably turns to the pastor's fear of jeopardizing his church's tax-exempt status.
The Rev. D. James Kennedy has stated:
“The federal government has proved a tremendous impediment to the ongoing work of Christians. In all the laws that they have passed against Christian schools, gagging the church, taxation, and all kinds of things that they have done, they have made it harder for the church to exercise its prerogatives and to preach the gospel.
"Take the last presidential election. There were numbers of things that I knew that I was never able to say from the pulpit because if you advance the cause of one candidate or impede the cause of the other you can lose your tax exemption. That would have been disastrous not only for the church, but for our school and our seminary, everything. So you are gagged. You cannot do that. The IRS, a branch of our government, has succeeded in gagging Christians."
Dr. Kennedy is right, but he's also blaming the wrong party. The IRS has never required any church to be 501c3.
The IRS' own publications plainly state that all church are "automatically tax-exempt and tax-deductible" without ever having to apply for 501c3 recognition.
Not only is 501c3 status unnecessary for any church, when a church becomes a 501c3 they place themselves under the regulatory control of the IRS, and all the potential threat and intimidation that comes along with it. Why would any thinking pastor want that, when it's not at all necessary? It just doesn't make sense.
Thankfully, there's a remedy. Churches can stop "rendering unto Caesar" those things which belong exclusively to Jesus Christ. For some insight on the issue you might want to check out: http://hushmoney.org |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Didn't we already have this discussion on one of the sister boards? I know I have read this exact post elsewhere, and the concept was soundly debated and fell into a lengthy discussion on taxes and unsupported opinions regarding the 'government's persecution of churches based on the church's stand on abortion'.
It seems to me that this topic is trying to slip in under the radar six months later, for whatever reason.
For the first time this topic came up please refer to:
http://www.bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?t=1179 |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Just for the sake of discussion though, here is an exerpt from the hushmoney site:
| Quote: | Scripture simply does not support the notion that the church is an inferior institution to the State. Nor, for that matter, is the church a superior institution to the State. God has ordained both the church and the civil government as His "ministers." The church is the minister of grace, while the State is the minister of justice. Church and State are two distinct and independent spheres of authority (jurisdictions) ordained by God.
However, no church can remain separate and distinct from the civil government when it incorporates and/or accepts 501c3 status. For legal purposes an incorporated 501c3 church has subordinated itself, by contract, to the civil government. For theological purposes, that church has made a covenant with the State, a covenant which Scripture in no way supports. |
I would agree whole heartedly with this concept. No one however, bible or government, requires a church to be governed by the the government  in order to operate as a church.
Where we are led astray by the website and this whole post, is in the idea that the church should be allowed to operate in a tax-exempt status, and not be registered 9for lack of a better word) by the IRS. The site and the poster of this thread tries to make the case that the church should be able to conduct business, own property, take in revenue, and participate in politics without being subjected to the taxes that all ather businesses are subjected to - all because they are a church.
What's the problem with this? Scripture does not say that this should be the case. The Chruch - the true Church is established to minister and spread the Gospel - which can be done without 503 status, or any other collaboration with government. When the 'church' goes beyond the dictates of scripture in what they are doing (such as owning property, collecting revenue, doing business) then they are going beyond the design of the real Church and involving themselves in the business of the world - and for that business they are subject to the laws that govern the world, such as taxes. |
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kirkguardian
Newbie Alert
Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Where we are led astray by the website and this whole post, is in the idea that the church should be allowed to operate in a tax-exempt status, and not be registered 9for lack of a better word) by the IRS. The site and the poster of this thread tries to make the case that the church should be able to conduct business, own property, take in revenue, and participate in politics without being subjected to the taxes that all ather businesses are subjected to - all because they are a church. |
Where we are led astray is not by the web site, but by your misrepresentations of the web site. The web site makes no argument in favor of a church "conducting business" or "take in revenue." You're using business terms, evidently because you think the church is a "business." Not everyone shares the opinion that the church is a "business."
Furthermore, not everything and everybody that owns property is a "business." I own property (perhaps you do to). Does that make me a business. The Salvation Army owns property (and lots of it). Does that make them a business? Maybe by your definition, but the IRS would disagree with you. The Salvation Army is a ""charitable organization" not a "business."
Churches have "tithes, offerings, and gifts." Businesses have "revenue" which is taxable. Tithes, offerings and gifts are not taxable.
Before you comment further on this, maybe you should check with the IRS to determine whether they believe that tithes, offerings and gifts constitute "revenue." Maybe you should refer to the "Gifts" section of the tax code, as well as section 170 "charitable contributions" before you try to mischaracterize tithes, offerings and gifts as "revenue."
Why do you suppose that churches are not required to file income tax returns (and it doesn't matter whether or not they are 501c3. Either way they don't file)? It's because they don't have any "revenue." They're not "businesses" nor are they treated by the IRS as "business." Why then are you attempting to characterize churches as "businesses"? Are you desirous of placing the church under IRS jurisdiction and control? Apparently so, as you've expressed your concern over the fact that churches should be required to "register" with the IRS.
Congress and the IRS recognize that there would be huge political (and theological) ramifications to their imposing a tax on the church. The tithe is God's alone. For any government to attempt to tax God's tithe is blasphemy, because that government is saying that they are sovereign over God. |
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RevJP
Puppy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 214
Location: State of Grace
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair, I did not express your concern over the fact that churches should be required to "register" with the IRS.
I simply said:
| Quote: | | When the 'church' goes beyond the dictates of scripture in what they are doing (such as owning property, collecting revenue, doing business) then they are going beyond the design of the real Church and involving themselves in the business of the world - and for that business they are subject to the laws that govern the world, such as taxes. |
and for your edification, my references to the church, or better put - a congregation - involving themselves in the business of the world, is not a reference to the congregation doing business, but in fact a reference to the congregation involving themselves in the affairs of the world, the ways of the world, the going's on of the world. I apologize if my use of english misled you somehow into thinking the word 'business' only meant the conduct of comerce.
Ultimately the bottom line is this:
The website inferr's that the government has some type of control over the participation of a, or many, congregations in anti-abortion protests due to their tax-exempt status. The website make dubious claims and hints at conspirital overtones with little or no evidence of that control other than the claim of one pastor regarding the government's reasons for their actions.
It is like me standing in line at the grocery store and complaining that the reason I had to stand in line is because I am white and the operators of the store are prejudiced against white men. Dubious at best. |
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